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She is brilliant after all and has time to study her targets. and yes she does plan on things not going according to plan .. They rarely do. Also remember shes not alone. While not shown she has almost a dozen or more of those Orbs with her stationed around her in the building.
Correct they know the difference between a combatant and a civilian although all bets are off if one of them shoots a Orb. it would return fire and then stop and look for other threats.
Some men in the medieval period would eat a dozen of raw eggs each morning as a way to get the same effect as steroids, so they could bulk up on muscles for fighting in the army.
Turns out the combination of a bit of steroids and a bunch of protein, works rather well.
Drop a gate with more than a few "Hip Pocket Nukes" Take out a couple guard towers with a railgun and suddenly Ramsey worries about casualties? Pardon me but Silver should be following a scorched earth policy in the IT Center.
Don't forget that Damnatio Memoriae promised assistance on the condition that Marcus's team would keep civilian casualties to a minimum. (See comic "Another Brick in the Wall".) Kathryn is privy to Marcus's tactical radio channel. If she hears that they're dropping the scorched-earth approach on civvies (like the people in this network node), things will get very bad, very fast, for Team New Troy.
Since Nuremberg the defense of I was only doing my job has been rejected by the World Court, the US Supreme Court, etc. Therefore those people in there are in no way innocent civilians they are viable military grade targets.
They're primarily technicians for the computer network and communications system that ties into the palace, and are sometimes called on to act as dispatchers and coordinators for emergency services. What makes them military-grade targets in your estimation?
As Rose said .. These people are NOT privvy to the Princes's madness.. nor are they any part of it. they are normal people working a regular ( high security job )
If silver killed them it would be Murder. Pure and simple.
I hate to disagree with you, Centcomm, but Command and Control is DEFINITELY a viable and reasonable military target, always has been, always will be. Removing the uniform from the individuals who actually perform the duties does not change that, any more than the President of the United States is not a viable military target because he isn't technically in the military.
Killing them while they are still capable of performing their duties would morally be no different than killing the guards on the towers.
Killing them after you have disabled them (barring very, VERY specific circumstances) would still be murder, of course, and it is generally preferable to avoid killing if possible, of course, but in combat, those who are actively opposing you (VERY VERY much including C&C personnel, personally armed or not) are all valid targets to be disabled through any means at your disposal.
Im not here to rack up a body count, they are people doing their job.. just like the people in the tower, just like my self.. just like the cassians.... I will use lethal force to shut down combatants, and keep my team safe.. but we are not here for a blood bath.. we will let the rebels do that as they see fit... stunning the human targets in the Network control hub allows for us to save the equipment.. which we need for what we are doing.. going in and blasting every one runs the risk of destroying equipment that we need to do our job...
If someone has a loaded gun pointed at you (Kyle!) and you put three rounds in his chest, that's Self-Defense. If another member of your team sneaks up behind him and clouts him with a wine bottle, knocking him unconscious, then putting "one in the head and two in the chest -- just to be sure" -- is Murder.
So, if during an attack you happen to kill an active combatant holding the most dangerous weapon known to Man: a radio -- on the other end of which is an armed Cassian response team -- that's "the regrettably necessary fortunes of War". Do it after you've rendered them unable to resist, and that's murder.
Of course, just because you _can_ do something doesn't necessarily mean you _should_. I am inclined to admire those who show mercy when in an overwhelming position of superiority and possessed of non-lethal combat capability. But that might just be my personal quirk. ^_^
"So if I understand you .. Killing them before she stunned them .. is combat.. BUT Killing them afterwards is Murder?"
They are part of the enemy command and control, which makes them enemy combatants. This is not remotely a debatable point (at least by modern standards), whether they are personally armed or uniformed or not.
In combat, enemy combatants are to be disabled by any means possible. Today, there is no form of non-lethal that is as effective as lethal. Using lethal force is therefore acceptable, morally, ethically, and legally. Full stop.
In conditions like the ones in this comic, it would generally be considered both admirable and desirable to use non-lethal means, but that is a risk, as it is not as effective as lethal.
Once an enemy combatant is disabled, they are no longer a "combatant". Intentionally executing them at that point would indeed by murder (barring some very rare and specific circumstances*).
I'm not trying to be tacky, but none of this is difficult or esoteric stuff. It's exceedingly basic stuff that every single member of our armed forces is expected to know (and held responsible for, if it comes up in combat) by they time they've finished the most basic of training, and something very similar is expected of anyone in our country who exercises their right to self-defense, even with no training of any kind.
* Spies may be summarily executed in the field, for instance, with sufficient evidence. Also, if it became necessary to destroy the facility, and you didn't have the man-power to remove them (say, your position was being overrun and you have the place rigged with explosives), that would most likely be OK (getting murkier, obviously). Intentionally executing them rather than let them be freed by the enemy is even murkier (and probably not OK in a majority of circumstances).
I think I'd generalize your statement a bit more. The network node itself is a viable military target, and taking control of it or destroying it are both potentially valid military objectives. Based upon the situation, the strategy, and the forces available, some scenarios could result in casualties for the people working there (for example destroying the network node via explosion as opposed to capturing it).
That being said, from a moral stance anything to draw civilians out of harm's way before destroying it would be something that should be done if it wouldn't compromise the mission.
Now if the mission doesn't require killing those civilians and you have a way to avoid it and you kill them anyway, then that's murder and/or war crime or whatever you want to call it. For Doc Silver here, it's hard to see a valid justification for lethal force. She's brought all the hardware she wanted so the concept that she wouldn't have stunner, restraints, knockout gas, or your other favorite non-lethal capture method of the day would seem odd.
They're trying to minimize casualties all around where they can, though. I seem to recall part of the plan was attempting to use the palace systems to lock up/capture as many combatants (definitely the Cassians) as possible.
Final word here, the occupants of that bunker made a conscious decision to accept the assignment that put them in harms way. Therefore the are not innocents so kill them because:
A. They can not continue to aid the enemy.
B. The length of time it will take replacements to get up to speed will measurably reduce response time while you withdraw.
C. word of mouth will make getting quality replacements harder, thus continuing the SNAFU created by the battle.
I have to disagree; I don't find it reasonable to say that a server technician who went in to work his normal shift should be treated like an armed combatant and killed on sight, not when there are ample non-lethal means available to neutralize them. Especially considering that this is not a full-scale military incursion, but a tightly-focused operation being carried out by a single team.
once they have been rendered unable to perform their job .. ie.. rendered unconscious.. they are no longer an issue... if this were a protracted engagement or an ongoing campaign to destroy nova roma, then yes.. I would firebomb the fuck out of the infrastructure and make sure it was going to be a long time before they could get those systems back online
but.. this isn't that kind of battle.. its get in.. get the target.. get out with minimum loss of life and equipment.. at this moment in time.. I don't give 2 shits about the political state of nova rome.. I have observed the situation and am using it to my advantage and will report back on it when I get to New Troy... but my mission says nothing about the political situation in Nova Roma.. and is out side of my mission scope... if we wanted the entire city a war zone... we wouldn't have bothered with a covert action and started launching missiles and drones at them till they submit..
One thing I would probably have done in advance of such an operation, is launch a tiny drone army, with drones the size of rats, into the sewers, and have them gnaw over any wire they can find at mission start time, ie. 04:00 am.
The sheer confusion those little buggers could create is incredible, plus you could leave them behind to record information after you leave, giving your secret services something to work with afterwards.
And is it just me, or do anyone else find it ironic hat Centcomm's troops are attacking .. well, Roma's Central-Communications ? :D
A. Knocking them out and restraining them if necessary does that just as well for the timeframe necessary. Plus B below.
B. If you're really worried about that, forget the personnel. They've got ample replacements anyway from the other shifts. Grill the equipment! Installing new/repairing it will take way longer than getting the next shift in and up to speed. We're talking days instead of hours here.
C. Experience says it's usually the opposite. A terror attack like this (don't ever believe that at this point it would be considered anything else) awakening a will to serve this way in capable people that wouldn't have considered it otherwise.
Never mind the fact that in this case, Silver actually needs the equipment in the room for a while. So any moral questions aside, she wants the fewest damage to it possible. Anti-personnel grenades and high velocity rounds are not really known for that.
I seem to recall something about four layers of barrier shields that're "not quite what you'd use on a ship." That seems like plenty between her and them to me.
The Doc said no unnecessary casualties, hence the stun grenades. I like splodey stuff too, but taking over the control center makes more sense tactically. This means they have the defensive nerve center to do with what they will. Misdirect forces, shut down defenses, reroute communications and generally raise hell. A couple, three of the baby drones with waldoes can handle that easily and defend themselves if necessary. Nice work, Doc.
My suspicion is that the data center is going to be used for C&C for the natives and for intrusion capability for Doc Silver. Nothing like using a supposedly safe data network to gain control of your targets C&C capability.
Not to mention when this is all over a low body count looks good for team New Troy with the citizens. They won't look like blood thirsty savages if they have minimal loss of life.
Stun grenades do less damage to communications and control equipment than high explosives and laser fire. It's a happy circumstance of practical tactical necessity and humanitarian impulse.
Actually these little lovelys are designed to NOT harm electronics at all .. they basicly use a combination of sonic and bright lights to nail humans they are very common in New Troy due to the high level of tech around. ( they are also quite useless against shields and Machines )
your commander center should always have at least 2 extremely well defended at all points and hours hardpoints between it and any outside access. These hardpoints should be impossible to take out with anything short of bunker busters.
It's like Nova Roma's entire command structure never expected to be attacked by guerrillas, or for that matter any competent and mobile foe.
Personally, I would by now be scrambling my military force to be locking down key points, such as this location.
This is a full on uprising with unknown insurgents assisting the known insurgents.
I suspect she'll be in deep shit within an hour... oh, wait. The competent commander just switched sides.
Nevermind, she'll be fine.
You have to trust someone or something somewhere. I believe the New Romans trusted their equipment and computer systems a bit more than they should have and that's what I would assume led to the Doc getting in so quickly and easily. They believed that either someone wouldn't be able to hack things without setting off alarms (NT & TR both have done that), and they believed the physical firepower would stop others.
The combination of hacking the right systems and not being shy about punching holes in the wall in other places and kill the guards and lookouts can be a difficult adversary to protect against. Additionally she absolutely qualifies as an agile adversary here, and quick decisive strikes can penetrate quite a lot in the way of defenses before an entrenched adversary can respond.
AAaannnnd I just figured out why the whole place isn't on high alert already and prepared to take on external threats. That would have interfered with the attempted assassination of Maxus (since most of the soldiers first owe their loyalty to him, since he's competent and well liked as opposed to incompetent and reviled.)
@CptKerion
You get a gold star. :)
The Prince did a great job of helping the New Troy team without even realizing it. They were already planning to launch their attack during a time when things would be a little confused (guard shift change). The guards were stirred up due to what Kyle did earlier, but the Prince had them diverted to out-of-the-way places specifically to enable Maxus's assassination to take place without interference. Sending them off to investigate the palace laundry and the janitors' closets and the sewage handling area is going to bite Decimus in the ass.
you already got a gold star from rose .. But yeah the prince basically boned his own Military .. hes very lucky New Troy DIDNT send a full Mil-Sec invasion.. it would have been a slaughter.
(( thats not outside of Cents reputation .. as a cold blooded murdering AIS ))
So funny enough, that means far fewer casualties among the guards, because they'll be out of the way of everything.
I suspect most of them are just guys trying to do their job and probably have families to go home to at the end of the day/tour of duty.
Well, THIS seems one-sided.
She can work in peace now that...everyone...is disabled one way or another.
Those droids are pretty badass, but I still can't get the idea of them having the voices of the Portal turrets. XD
I would've put a camouflaged ablative coating over it, specifically one that doesn't leave a residue when boiled off. Extra protection on both the visibility and the energy weapons.
Of course, in sci-fi I put ablative paint on just about everything. Hell, even toasters (It's a fire prevention method)
I suspect these people are going to die. After all, I don't think Decimus would be forgiving when he finds out that they were in the room at the time of the attack. He would probably see the fact that they were unconscious as either an "excuse" or another sign that they weren't doing their jobs (as they should have defended themselves against the attack).
{edit} Or the military may decide that the best way to deal with Dr Silver is to remove the air from that room?
I kinda' doubt Decimus' time remaining on this world is very long. Having two independent New Troy teams converge on the same night he decides to try to off Maxus isn't going to go well for him.
If nothing else, I think Miraiko has mentally put an expiration date on Decimus as something not more than fifteen minutes after Kyle gets Aeneas sufficiently fixed to help out with Decimus' fail-safes. There was at least an implication that she received the full hardening treatment that Kyle had enough of a taste of to survive three in the chest, so that coupled with TR making herself at home inside NR systems for years suggests she'll have no problem getting to Decimus.
I kinda' thought that was the point of Miraiko saying that Kyle's mission was to save a lot of people. By repairing Aeneas enough that he could assist in foiling Decimus' failsafe.
Setorius seems pragmatic above all else. Whenever others stop killing each other and it's safe, he'll go back to work. If he can learn something new from the things one side did to the other, he'll do that before anything else. After that, he'd be happy to use any knowledge he'd get from any sources. How much he'd give back to those that consider AIs to be "people" too seems like a minimum.
I don't think Doc Silver particularly likes to share. I can't see her collaborating with anyone very easily, especially someone in a cult of biological superiority. I'm sure she'd still use anything useful of Setorius' that she came across, but I don't see her inclined to help him if it wasn't out of her way to avoid it.
As a sidenote, while Doc Silver is certainly powerful, I would not put Setorious down as any less dangerous.
He is old and wily, and has been experimenting on his own body for a loong time. I suspect that while he would prefer NOT to fight, he would certainly be able to rise to the occasion - And he would be as dangerous as they come.
The jackasses in the military are wearing Blue, not Red. Those are Dec's personal Inflamed Rectal Inversion Receivers. Each including Dec'head is so far up they only see poop.
Yup. The blue-armored guys are the full-fledged fuckmonglers. The prince personally selects them, and they're all utter bastards. They're loyal to him because he lets them indulge their bad habits, which range from "socially unacceptable" to "outright psychopathic", in carefully directed ways.
We try to make most of our characters, even the bit ones, fairly well-developed personalities. These guys, however, are all figuratively wearing big signs that say "I AM AN IRREDEEMABLE SHITSTAIN, PLEASE OXY-CLEAN ME".
Rose would be on the fence between "put them into rehabilitative therapy to see if they're remotely fixable" and "hollowpoint in the ear and a trip to the crematorium". Not a one of them is safe to leave running around loose, that's for sure.
I would rather say "Personification of planning and OP firepower."
But how will she handle the unexpected?
That is the big owie question!
Keep up the votes guys!
I remember my aunt showing me once when I was a kid.
Turns out the combination of a bit of steroids and a bunch of protein, works rather well.
BTW as to the incentive... Hello Nurse
As Rose said .. These people are NOT privvy to the Princes's madness.. nor are they any part of it. they are normal people working a regular ( high security job )
If silver killed them it would be Murder. Pure and simple.
OK back to better conversations! :D
Killing them while they are still capable of performing their duties would morally be no different than killing the guards on the towers.
Killing them after you have disabled them (barring very, VERY specific circumstances) would still be murder, of course, and it is generally preferable to avoid killing if possible, of course, but in combat, those who are actively opposing you (VERY VERY much including C&C personnel, personally armed or not) are all valid targets to be disabled through any means at your disposal.
If someone has a loaded gun pointed at you (Kyle!) and you put three rounds in his chest, that's Self-Defense. If another member of your team sneaks up behind him and clouts him with a wine bottle, knocking him unconscious, then putting "one in the head and two in the chest -- just to be sure" -- is Murder.
So, if during an attack you happen to kill an active combatant holding the most dangerous weapon known to Man: a radio -- on the other end of which is an armed Cassian response team -- that's "the regrettably necessary fortunes of War". Do it after you've rendered them unable to resist, and that's murder.
Of course, just because you _can_ do something doesn't necessarily mean you _should_. I am inclined to admire those who show mercy when in an overwhelming position of superiority and possessed of non-lethal combat capability. But that might just be my personal quirk. ^_^
They are part of the enemy command and control, which makes them enemy combatants. This is not remotely a debatable point (at least by modern standards), whether they are personally armed or uniformed or not.
In combat, enemy combatants are to be disabled by any means possible. Today, there is no form of non-lethal that is as effective as lethal. Using lethal force is therefore acceptable, morally, ethically, and legally. Full stop.
In conditions like the ones in this comic, it would generally be considered both admirable and desirable to use non-lethal means, but that is a risk, as it is not as effective as lethal.
Once an enemy combatant is disabled, they are no longer a "combatant". Intentionally executing them at that point would indeed by murder (barring some very rare and specific circumstances*).
I'm not trying to be tacky, but none of this is difficult or esoteric stuff. It's exceedingly basic stuff that every single member of our armed forces is expected to know (and held responsible for, if it comes up in combat) by they time they've finished the most basic of training, and something very similar is expected of anyone in our country who exercises their right to self-defense, even with no training of any kind.
* Spies may be summarily executed in the field, for instance, with sufficient evidence. Also, if it became necessary to destroy the facility, and you didn't have the man-power to remove them (say, your position was being overrun and you have the place rigged with explosives), that would most likely be OK (getting murkier, obviously). Intentionally executing them rather than let them be freed by the enemy is even murkier (and probably not OK in a majority of circumstances).
That being said, from a moral stance anything to draw civilians out of harm's way before destroying it would be something that should be done if it wouldn't compromise the mission.
Now if the mission doesn't require killing those civilians and you have a way to avoid it and you kill them anyway, then that's murder and/or war crime or whatever you want to call it. For Doc Silver here, it's hard to see a valid justification for lethal force. She's brought all the hardware she wanted so the concept that she wouldn't have stunner, restraints, knockout gas, or your other favorite non-lethal capture method of the day would seem odd.
They're trying to minimize casualties all around where they can, though. I seem to recall part of the plan was attempting to use the palace systems to lock up/capture as many combatants (definitely the Cassians) as possible.
A. They can not continue to aid the enemy.
B. The length of time it will take replacements to get up to speed will measurably reduce response time while you withdraw.
C. word of mouth will make getting quality replacements harder, thus continuing the SNAFU created by the battle.
but.. this isn't that kind of battle.. its get in.. get the target.. get out with minimum loss of life and equipment.. at this moment in time.. I don't give 2 shits about the political state of nova rome.. I have observed the situation and am using it to my advantage and will report back on it when I get to New Troy... but my mission says nothing about the political situation in Nova Roma.. and is out side of my mission scope... if we wanted the entire city a war zone... we wouldn't have bothered with a covert action and started launching missiles and drones at them till they submit..
The sheer confusion those little buggers could create is incredible, plus you could leave them behind to record information after you leave, giving your secret services something to work with afterwards.
And is it just me, or do anyone else find it ironic hat Centcomm's troops are attacking .. well, Roma's Central-Communications ? :D
A. Knocking them out and restraining them if necessary does that just as well for the timeframe necessary. Plus B below.
B. If you're really worried about that, forget the personnel. They've got ample replacements anyway from the other shifts. Grill the equipment! Installing new/repairing it will take way longer than getting the next shift in and up to speed. We're talking days instead of hours here.
C. Experience says it's usually the opposite. A terror attack like this (don't ever believe that at this point it would be considered anything else) awakening a will to serve this way in capable people that wouldn't have considered it otherwise.
Never mind the fact that in this case, Silver actually needs the equipment in the room for a while. So any moral questions aside, she wants the fewest damage to it possible. Anti-personnel grenades and high velocity rounds are not really known for that.
Saucy!
It's like Nova Roma's entire command structure never expected to be attacked by guerrillas, or for that matter any competent and mobile foe.
Personally, I would by now be scrambling my military force to be locking down key points, such as this location.
This is a full on uprising with unknown insurgents assisting the known insurgents.
I suspect she'll be in deep shit within an hour... oh, wait. The competent commander just switched sides.
Nevermind, she'll be fine.
almost like someone is .. arranging things to hit while things are at there worst.
who do we know who is that opertonusitc.
The combination of hacking the right systems and not being shy about punching holes in the wall in other places and kill the guards and lookouts can be a difficult adversary to protect against. Additionally she absolutely qualifies as an agile adversary here, and quick decisive strikes can penetrate quite a lot in the way of defenses before an entrenched adversary can respond.
Yes, Tokyo Rose, we are looking at you!
Who, me? /halo
@CptKerion
You get a gold star. :)
The Prince did a great job of helping the New Troy team without even realizing it. They were already planning to launch their attack during a time when things would be a little confused (guard shift change). The guards were stirred up due to what Kyle did earlier, but the Prince had them diverted to out-of-the-way places specifically to enable Maxus's assassination to take place without interference. Sending them off to investigate the palace laundry and the janitors' closets and the sewage handling area is going to bite Decimus in the ass.
(( thats not outside of Cents reputation .. as a cold blooded murdering AIS ))
I suspect most of them are just guys trying to do their job and probably have families to go home to at the end of the day/tour of duty.
EVIV BULGROZ!!
She can work in peace now that...everyone...is disabled one way or another.
Those droids are pretty badass, but I still can't get the idea of them having the voices of the Portal turrets. XD
Of course, in sci-fi I put ablative paint on just about everything. Hell, even toasters (It's a fire prevention method)
{edit} Or the military may decide that the best way to deal with Dr Silver is to remove the air from that room?
If nothing else, I think Miraiko has mentally put an expiration date on Decimus as something not more than fifteen minutes after Kyle gets Aeneas sufficiently fixed to help out with Decimus' fail-safes. There was at least an implication that she received the full hardening treatment that Kyle had enough of a taste of to survive three in the chest, so that coupled with TR making herself at home inside NR systems for years suggests she'll have no problem getting to Decimus.
We LOVE our nice mad scientist lady... (when she's not aiming the pointy end towards us)
God no?
I don't think Doc Silver particularly likes to share. I can't see her collaborating with anyone very easily, especially someone in a cult of biological superiority. I'm sure she'd still use anything useful of Setorius' that she came across, but I don't see her inclined to help him if it wasn't out of her way to avoid it.
He is old and wily, and has been experimenting on his own body for a loong time. I suspect that while he would prefer NOT to fight, he would certainly be able to rise to the occasion - And he would be as dangerous as they come.
We try to make most of our characters, even the bit ones, fairly well-developed personalities. These guys, however, are all figuratively wearing big signs that say "I AM AN IRREDEEMABLE SHITSTAIN, PLEASE OXY-CLEAN ME".
Hrmm, hrmmm ...
If Rose had any say in it, they would be anally invaded by a murderturd, wouldn't they?
One of the male operators, more like.
Regardless of how it was planned, this is my head-canon now.