I wonder if her attachment to her body is sentimental or necessary. It seems like possibly some of the cyberpath abilities might require her human biology, because if they didn't they could be widely replicated.
I wonder how much time and energy is expended to allow her to fully transcend and no longer require her body.
OK. I now trust Rose even less than I did before. If she is in suspended animation cryo-sleep that means she still has the generations long inbred belief in Asian Sphere Dominance. In other words she wants to rule the world.
@TokyoRose: Please see my comment in the "Benevolence" thread. I also misspoke in the original post, instead of Asian Sphere Dominance I should have said Japanese Sphere Dominance. As a Japanese acquaintance once told me, "You occidentals hold the scientific belief your are descended from the family~Hominidae~ (Great Apes) while we Japanese know we are descended from ~The Kami~(Divine Beings) therefore our culture will overreach yours and we will be the dominant power in the world."
"Asian Sphere Dominance"? I believe you mean "self-evident genetic cultural and bloodline superiority". After all, the west is comprised of "honorless barbarian savages", at least according to Tokugawa.
Is there any culture that hasn't gone through that stage at some point? Pretty much every inhabited region has been host to such beliefs, either developing them or being conquered by those that do.
I;ve always thought that Rose wants to rule the world (and Luna, the rest of the Solar System, the Orion Arm, the Milky Way, the Local Group, the Virgo Supercluster, the Laniakea Supercluster, the Observable Universe, etc...)
I'm not sure why you are thinking that sigpig. Nothing I've seen (so far) indicates Rose has ANY desire to rule everyone. From my read Rose more fits the role of mentor. She seems more interested in guiding people than ruling them. Give them the tools to make an informed decision. If Rose was trying to rule things, I think Nova Roma wouldn't have happened. She wouldn't have let it.
Even ruling from behind the throne requires a lot of time, effort, and patience. I think she wants free ability to influence everyone in known human habitation, but I don't think she wants the responsibility of ruling, even by proxy.
Not that I think she shirks responsibility, it just doesn't seem to be in her personality to want to truly dominate others. She certainly likes swearing at them, but she doesn't take away free will, and with her tech, I strongly suspect that she could.
I'm with Stormwind13 that mentor fits much better than ruler.
From Aeneas's point of view, I would actually trust Rose more after this revelation. She just revealed that someone he knew for centuries is indeed his worst nightmare, and she has never, in all the time he knew her, used her boogie-woman powers on him.
Aeneas' ability to remember his own name was in danger a minute or two ago. It would be irrational for him, especially in the presence of a powerful cyberpath, to assume his memory of what has happened is in any way complete.
Son-of-a-beehive! So Rose is meatware. A regular female Methuselah. She's the whole damn internet/cloud/neural net/server/mind reader and remote controller all rolled into one. Is Doc Silver her cousin or sumpin'? She must have somehow overcome her basic human instincts like Id and Ego, so she's benevolent, not malevolent like Skynet in the 'Terminator' series.
well I can imagine it may have started as something she had to do. For probably medical or maybe experimental/military reasons but now she has access to all that power, she probably does not want to go back to being merely human.
As a "full-spectrum cyber-psionic" it's not clear that being unfrozen and physically unhooked from her current apparatus would break the connection and lessen her powers/abilities/consciousness/processing.
At this point I sincerely doubt if she could be awakened again. While her human brain still functions no doubt as one of her primary memory/personality nodes and the seat of much of her cyber ability, her intellectual functions have no doubt been spread out through numerous remote artificial and mechanical brains for speed and efficiency's sake and the human organic brain just couldn't handle it even with augmentation.
Rose is trapped in her crypt by her own success.
What sort of range do Tokyo Rose's powers have? Presumably it isn't anywhere big enough to reach the other cities, otherwise she would have dealt with Nova Roma years ago. As it has been confirmed that none of the other cities' AIs (or people, presumably) are aware of her abilities, presumably being dictated by the intense phobia that all AIs have concerning cyberpathy in all its forms, is Aeneas going to be allowed to leave with this information? I'm thinking he's just walked into a "curiosity killed the cat" type scenario...
Tokyo Rose: I can do it all - communication, physical control, mental control, the whole enchilada. Like so. ...You won't tell anyone, will you?
Aeneas: Tell anyone about what? ...You mean about me and Yasakani? Yes, of course - it's far to early to go public. *sigh* My little green jewel...
Rose is overstating for the sake of drama. City A.I.s aren't really all that afraid of being subverted; note that Aeneas dealt her a nasty blow, and he's damaged.
Even most androids aren't all that worried about the notion, because cyber-psi abilities are rare, and don't tend to be very powerful. The Cassians in general (and Noctis in particular) have that fear because they're already enslaved by their inhibitors, which can dictate their actions; the idea of someone being able to go even further and control their very thoughts is abhorrent.
So much of the Tokyo Rose entity is misdirection, deception, or secret it's difficult to really get a sense of her. (Which is probably just the way _she_wants it, but can sometimes make it a little difficult for the readers ^_^)
Frequently the difference between a Teacher and. Tyrant is a matter of hindsight, after all. If you are subjugated to one, most people can only hope it is a good teacher, or a benign tyrant.
As for how significant the blow she was dealt by Aeneas ... it isn't really coming through to me. Uncomfortable, I got. It might leave a bruise. But there's really no hint of any impairment at all resulting from it -- even a minor or temporary one. It suggests that Aeneas could flail away at her with his full unfettered might and provoke nothing more than the response "I could do this all day". She might make some sounds of distress just because, in the words of Fezzik (Andre the Giant), "I just want you to feel like you are doing well." But, I'm not seeing anything beyond that -- which is probably _exactly_ the impression she would want to create if anyone attacked her.
I see. So, Rose's screaming extirpation by Aeneas... what parts of that were real, and what sprung from her sense of drama? Maybe: "Oh hell, the feedback's gonna FUBAR this avatar... so let's make this a convincingly melodramatic exit... (Kusanagi can hold the fort)"
Dying
Is an art, like everything else.
I do it exceptionally well.
I do it so it feels like hell.
I do it so it feels real.
I guess you could say I've a call.
It's easy enough to do it in a cell.
It's easy enough to do it and stay put.
It's the theatrical
Comeback in broad day
To the same place, the same face, the same brute
Amused shout:
Tokyo Rose may be an accomplished liar who's very good at feigning distress where none is present . . . but note that Kagami called her on her rub-dirt-in-it-get-back-in-the-game attitude.
Never ask a lady her age.
Never ask if a woman is a lady.
As my wise Grandpa told me, "When dealing with a woman, always assume that she's under 30, under 130, and a lady, despite any evidence to the contrary!"
It seems unlikely that she can be more than a generation or two old for Luna Star. Five at most. Just from a technological stance of being able for her to be preserved in a sufficiently animated state to be able to act. If the tech for that was there at the time, it would seem odd for Galina's tech to be so groundbreaking/revolutionary. Cryogenics and nanomedicine for preservation of her body are one thing, but sufficient scientific understanding of the workings of the human brain to prevent insanity and massive cognitive decline while dealing with the memories and knowledge of several generations would make Galina's architecture much less surprising.
So you can get a rough estimate of her age from that.
Right. Tokyo Rose assisted in building the Three Treasures and played a role in the A.I.S. rebellion, but she didn't help construct Deep Blue, Cent-Comm, or Agamemnon. (Yes, there are other city A.I.s out there, but since they haven't been mentioned in-story, lips are sealed. :D)
I don't think TR has a doll at all? I've never seen her outside a virtual environment. As for which of Galina (of whose story I just finished reading, so it's fresh in my mind) or Dolly is higher tech, I'm not so sure. I think they could both pass for being completely human, at least with out looking inside them, but as I assumed they're designed differently, it's hard to really compare.
I think she does, and we're seeing it right now. After all, who could she truly trust to maintain her physical body in its frozen state if not herself?
What's on-screen in front of Aeneas right now is a doll; this is a video feed, as was meant to be indicated by her muttering about the camera drone. :D
I guess her being a physical doll makes sense. I had just assumed she superimposed her (more) public image over the camera feed of her capsule, but having a doll does sound pratical.
@Tahg - As I recall from cast page, Deep Blue is stated as the only one among his peers to NOT maintain a physical presence and/or use dolls of some type. While story TR is technically a meat popsicle, she is generally perceived as an AIS, so would count among Deep Blue's peers.
Gali is fairly close to a model 4 after the epips tinkered with her she was top of the line and would have been very difficult to tell her from a human .. unless you scanned her then its obvious.
Dolly can fool almost any scanner on the first pass and probably on the second too.
Edit : it also bears mentioning that Galina uses a CLONED human brain and parts of her nervous system instead of the totally synthetic parts used in common Androids.
Actually TR's Dolls are pretty much inline with what Cent comm uses. The brain of the doll is literally just a receiver with a few autonomous processors to handle simple jobs when not being directly controlled.
Note a Doll is NOT a android it is a Robot. Like a waldo or other remote device.
This took me a while to contemplate -- and of course you know better than I -- but it seems very logical and likely to me that CentComm has actually had lovers. To make the case would require far more serious philosophising than the commonplace tone of these commentaries permits, and I'm sure the details are guarded by Centcomm with the same degree of sensitivity as Shinedo guards Rose's origins (for many of the same reasons). However, given the likely personality of someone capable of the Long Joke and someone capable of forming a "non-negotiable" relationship with the Taylor Clan, it is hard for me to imagine otherwise.
One of the really interesting questions this provokes, to me, is where does "Rose" reside now, and where do her psionic powers reside? Is the body truly the host, or is it just a peripheral at this stage? ("Have you ever seen a cluster drive with curves like _that_ before?" ^_^)
People talk about her accepting a download into a doll to "get back to being almost human". (Ignoring the fact that Rose is probably _the _ spokesperson for the "Humanity is a lot more than what you're made of ..." movement. ^_^) But we don't even know whether she might have 'grown' to the point where she would no longer 'fit' in any human-sized vessel. After all, she regularly treats with other A.I.s in such a way that they (apparently) can't tell the difference -- implying that her clock speed and processing power have far transcended what meat CPUs can support.
And, if psionics are now a studied and known 'thing', does that mean that A.I. full-spectrum cyberpaths can be constructed? There appears (in the world of Datachasers) to be nothing at which 'meat' is superior. Mechanics have improved strength, resilience, durability, speed, power, capability, and versatility. So, why not a psionics machine host? That's probably the next secret project that Rose and the Treasures would be working on either creating or moving into. (Though, of course, I am sure she would mean for it to be a benign entity.)
There are some theories about how Tokyo Rose might view Dolly's "Model 5" body; the real answer has two parts.
1) It's a step in the wrong direction for android advancement. It trades off too many of the android advantages (in strength, resilience, durability, speed, power, capability, and versatility, to steal an apt summary) and acquires too many of the human disadvantages (sleep, food, excretion, susceptibility to poisons and infectious agents, subjection to age-based tissue degradation, just for starters) to justify calling it an "improvement".
2) It's a step in the RIGHT direction for human/android relations. Androids that aren't super-strong, super-fast, tireless, relentless, virtually immortal beings may be perceived as more relatable by humans, and may themselves gain a new perspective on the human condition in the form of first-hand understanding of human weaknesses.
So now Rode has seen Dolly. She knows that bio/mech dolls of her design exist. I would think she would be down with that upgrade. Plus Cent mentioned that she has goals associated with the tech and that Dolly would be a trial by fire. So what is the end game? Are the A.I.S. trying to become biological?
Blur the lines the opposite direction Rose has.
There's a difference between an AIS wanting to become fully biological, versus wanting to be able to fully experience the possibilities of a biological existence. That and finding new tech advances worthwhile to study and attempt to understand/assimilate.
So at last we see Rose disrobed. Well worth the wait, but I feel a bit like Actaeon watching Diana bathe. I get the strong sense that I should creep away before the hounds start baying.
Interesting, this reveal makes some Rose' silence on some of my old crazy theories, to make more sense.
I always wondered why she was so quiet on them.
My first one was in the comments of Comic 881 - Voice of reason...
Where I had the whole "dying synth brain combined with mainframe and 3 young hackers" going on. Obviously I was wrong, except for the part where she wasn't originally an AIS, and used a personal neural net as a base for her "system" - And she said NOTHING !
Dammit, I was so close, and yet so far .. AND SHE SAID NOTHING!!!
Well played, Rose, well played!
Was it hard ?
And then there was the one in the comments of Comic 1017 - Calling her bluff, which at the time seemed somewhat unlikely, but now fits even better, because Rose has a human body ... thus when Rose asks Centcomm about "sexual frustration" :
Tokyo Rose : "Sooo, you don't get .. you know .. either ?
Centcomm : "No, I don't know what either."
Tokyo Rose : "Well, you know ... rub one out ? Polish the pearl ? Sexual frustration, Cent!"
Centcomm : "No Rose, I don't get sexually frustrated, I'm an AIS."
Tokyo Rose : "B-but you haven't gotten any in decades!"
Centcomm : "Rose, you know damn well that I wasn't buildt with those urges, clearly you're just stalling!"
Tokyo Rose : "Ya Think?"
That whole skit fits so much better now ! :D
Still doing it for the lulz though.
Any chance that it would be considered a non-spoiler for some Word of God knowledge regarding Rose's history?
Her body looks fairly young here, is that intended or just a facet of the model and not worth it to massively modify to make her look like she's an old woman?
Had she already taken the first steps to this in Luna Star, or was she still studying the feasibility and/or developing tech that led to this?
Since she was a collaborator in helping create Galina, did she keep some of her DNA spare to partially clone herself to make her dolls similar to Galina early on (and maybe even now), or did she consider more normal android bodies sufficient?
To be fair, by the time Galina was kicking about, human anti-aging medicine would have been pretty advanced - Her body was probably in pretty good shape, by the time she went into a cryo pod.
Nice. There were signs pointing to it, if you knew to look, but I tend to generally go with the flow until I get sideswiped by this kind of thing and then I go WHOA!!! :)
Rose and Cent, I would praise your genius, but any phases and metaphors fall flat on their face with the excellence of this element in your story. As a fellow writer I say 'Way to keep them guessing until the very end!' on this particular mystery. Now to solve the next hundred or so...
"She told me I could *!@#$!#$ my #!#%!$# with a $%&!$# sideways and then #$%@!#$% up my &*$%#@%$ while #$@%$ flamethrower and %#$^@%!%$ barstool or maybe a $%#$%^ jackhammer and I... I just wanna go home and cry, sir!"
"Why, the insolence! I will -"
"Uh, sir, she also said you could do all that too, as well as %^@#$% your &*@#$% in the $#%@#$% with a &*#$% your mom, sir."
I guess I'm too literal. I don't understand the art. I thought these people were software AIs. So all the circles and other pretty designs in the background are ... what? representations of AI? What happened to the war? Who are these other people. I am so confused. I do not want to read comments in order to understand the plot. And there are 100's of comments on these pages, most of which are banal. When does reality return? I hope soon.
Next Wednesday we will rejoin Dolly and the girls. As for this segment yes there is a lot of abstract things going on. And yes ALMOST all of them are software entity's. Rose has now been revealed to be a cryo frozen Linked brain. She can use her intellect over the same networks as the AIS systems. Thats the overly simplified version. Sorry if its confusing.
Sadly wider readership, chk. TRYING to get more people to give Data Chasers a chance. Some are going to be turned off by the CGI art without looking at what CentComm has done with it. :-7
Yes chk; however, consider how far Data Chasers has come. Back when I 'discovered' Data Chasers, I'm thinking it wasn't in the top 200! Which was a TRAVESTY!
Slowly things have improved so that is consistently in the top 20, 15 in recent times. The readership has apparently increased quite a bit. I'm thinking the 6,000 votes (at the end of month) back in 2013 would have been SOLIDLY in the top 10, maybe into the top 5!
Ah well, I guess we weren't too off base.
I wonder if her attachment to her body is sentimental or necessary. It seems like possibly some of the cyberpath abilities might require her human biology, because if they didn't they could be widely replicated.
I wonder how much time and energy is expended to allow her to fully transcend and no longer require her body.
Not that I think she shirks responsibility, it just doesn't seem to be in her personality to want to truly dominate others. She certainly likes swearing at them, but she doesn't take away free will, and with her tech, I strongly suspect that she could.
I'm with Stormwind13 that mentor fits much better than ruler.
And that, RIGHT THERE, ought to explain vast swaths of her personality. :D
Granted, he IS somewhat irrational right now.
(has an image of an ice cream truck selling rose parts in summer...)
Law enforcement (from the other side of the door): Are you human?
Corbin Dallas: Ahh, negative. I am a meat Popsicle.
Now we just need a
princebastard, to wake her up with a kiss ... man is she gonna be PISSED ! .. Oh hey Decimus!This might help explain why Rose is about half a bubble off keel...
Rose is trapped in her crypt by her own success.
@alt text: so true...
It explains several things, but that is SOME secret!
...
...
...about a thousand years ago...
be grateful and polite.
too bad almost no-one on here will understand the yuki-no-onna reference
Tokyo Rose: I can do it all - communication, physical control, mental control, the whole enchilada. Like so. ...You won't tell anyone, will you?
Aeneas: Tell anyone about what? ...You mean about me and Yasakani? Yes, of course - it's far to early to go public. *sigh* My little green jewel...
Meanwhile...
Yasakani: ...*!* :-o X-) Best boss EVER!! ♥
>:=)>
Even most androids aren't all that worried about the notion, because cyber-psi abilities are rare, and don't tend to be very powerful. The Cassians in general (and Noctis in particular) have that fear because they're already enslaved by their inhibitors, which can dictate their actions; the idea of someone being able to go even further and control their very thoughts is abhorrent.
Frequently the difference between a Teacher and. Tyrant is a matter of hindsight, after all. If you are subjugated to one, most people can only hope it is a good teacher, or a benign tyrant.
As for how significant the blow she was dealt by Aeneas ... it isn't really coming through to me. Uncomfortable, I got. It might leave a bruise. But there's really no hint of any impairment at all resulting from it -- even a minor or temporary one. It suggests that Aeneas could flail away at her with his full unfettered might and provoke nothing more than the response "I could do this all day". She might make some sounds of distress just because, in the words of Fezzik (Andre the Giant), "I just want you to feel like you are doing well." But, I'm not seeing anything beyond that -- which is probably _exactly_ the impression she would want to create if anyone attacked her.
Dying
Is an art, like everything else.
I do it exceptionally well.
I do it so it feels like hell.
I do it so it feels real.
I guess you could say I've a call.
It's easy enough to do it in a cell.
It's easy enough to do it and stay put.
It's the theatrical
Comeback in broad day
To the same place, the same face, the same brute
Amused shout:
'A miracle!'
That knocks me out.
From Lady Lazarus by Sylvia Plath
>;=)>
PATREON BONUS!!!!!!!!!
I wonder how old her body really is?
Never ask if a woman is a lady.
As my wise Grandpa told me, "When dealing with a woman, always assume that she's under 30, under 130, and a lady, despite any evidence to the contrary!"
So you can get a rough estimate of her age from that.
If it's true.
I still suspect she had a hand in all of them and (behind the scenes) brokered the end of the war.
Intimidating, online dating, speed dating...
Seriously, we pretty much made the same post within milliseconds of each other ROFL.
Dolly can fool almost any scanner on the first pass and probably on the second too.
Edit : it also bears mentioning that Galina uses a CLONED human brain and parts of her nervous system instead of the totally synthetic parts used in common Androids.
Note a Doll is NOT a android it is a Robot. Like a waldo or other remote device.
"Does this doll make my hair look too pink?"
"There's no such thing as _too_ pink."
Cent-Comm: (launches into clinical critique of sexual intercourse, with emphasis on fluids)
Tokyo Rose: "You've made your point."
People talk about her accepting a download into a doll to "get back to being almost human". (Ignoring the fact that Rose is probably _the _ spokesperson for the "Humanity is a lot more than what you're made of ..." movement. ^_^) But we don't even know whether she might have 'grown' to the point where she would no longer 'fit' in any human-sized vessel. After all, she regularly treats with other A.I.s in such a way that they (apparently) can't tell the difference -- implying that her clock speed and processing power have far transcended what meat CPUs can support.
And, if psionics are now a studied and known 'thing', does that mean that A.I. full-spectrum cyberpaths can be constructed? There appears (in the world of Datachasers) to be nothing at which 'meat' is superior. Mechanics have improved strength, resilience, durability, speed, power, capability, and versatility. So, why not a psionics machine host? That's probably the next secret project that Rose and the Treasures would be working on either creating or moving into. (Though, of course, I am sure she would mean for it to be a benign entity.)
Epiphytes use psi amplifiers and other psi sensitive tech but they don't give that tech to many.
And none of the AIS systems are psionic in nature.
1) It's a step in the wrong direction for android advancement. It trades off too many of the android advantages (in strength, resilience, durability, speed, power, capability, and versatility, to steal an apt summary) and acquires too many of the human disadvantages (sleep, food, excretion, susceptibility to poisons and infectious agents, subjection to age-based tissue degradation, just for starters) to justify calling it an "improvement".
2) It's a step in the RIGHT direction for human/android relations. Androids that aren't super-strong, super-fast, tireless, relentless, virtually immortal beings may be perceived as more relatable by humans, and may themselves gain a new perspective on the human condition in the form of first-hand understanding of human weaknesses.
Blur the lines the opposite direction Rose has.
I always wondered why she was so quiet on them.
My first one was in the comments of Comic 881 - Voice of reason...
Where I had the whole "dying synth brain combined with mainframe and 3 young hackers" going on. Obviously I was wrong, except for the part where she wasn't originally an AIS, and used a personal neural net as a base for her "system" - And she said NOTHING !
Dammit, I was so close, and yet so far .. AND SHE SAID NOTHING!!!
Well played, Rose, well played!
Was it hard ?
And then there was the one in the comments of Comic 1017 - Calling her bluff, which at the time seemed somewhat unlikely, but now fits even better, because Rose has a human body ... thus when Rose asks Centcomm about "sexual frustration" :
Tokyo Rose : "Sooo, you don't get .. you know .. either ?
Centcomm : "No, I don't know what either."
Tokyo Rose : "Well, you know ... rub one out ? Polish the pearl ? Sexual frustration, Cent!"
Centcomm : "No Rose, I don't get sexually frustrated, I'm an AIS."
Tokyo Rose : "B-but you haven't gotten any in decades!"
Centcomm : "Rose, you know damn well that I wasn't buildt with those urges, clearly you're just stalling!"
Tokyo Rose : "Ya Think?"
That whole skit fits so much better now ! :D
Still doing it for the lulz though.
Makes me wonder, has the in-comic Rose ever teased Centcomm abot things like sexual urges ?
Her body looks fairly young here, is that intended or just a facet of the model and not worth it to massively modify to make her look like she's an old woman?
Had she already taken the first steps to this in Luna Star, or was she still studying the feasibility and/or developing tech that led to this?
Since she was a collaborator in helping create Galina, did she keep some of her DNA spare to partially clone herself to make her dolls similar to Galina early on (and maybe even now), or did she consider more normal android bodies sufficient?
Nice. There were signs pointing to it, if you knew to look, but I tend to generally go with the flow until I get sideswiped by this kind of thing and then I go WHOA!!! :)
Beautiful job, ladies!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEGo41443iI&index=1&list=FL6ljMM_8U-tiX-Csm9UMBwA
"That....explains a lot..."
Is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide,
No escape from reality.
Open your eyes,
Look up to Japan and see...
*falls over laughing......then notices every electronic device he owns now has glowing red light on them.*
Uh oh. Eep! *runs*
"Status report on the project, technician."
"S-sir, the subject, um..."
"Spit it out, man!"
"She told me I could *!@#$!#$ my #!#%!$# with a $%&!$# sideways and then #$%@!#$% up my &*$%#@%$ while #$@%$ flamethrower and %#$^@%!%$ barstool or maybe a $%#$%^ jackhammer and I... I just wanna go home and cry, sir!"
"Why, the insolence! I will -"
"Uh, sir, she also said you could do all that too, as well as %^@#$% your &*@#$% in the $#%@#$% with a &*#$% your mom, sir."
"... I need to have a good cry now too."
Awesome outfit!
Slowly things have improved so that is consistently in the top 20, 15 in recent times. The readership has apparently increased quite a bit. I'm thinking the 6,000 votes (at the end of month) back in 2013 would have been SOLIDLY in the top 10, maybe into the top 5!