Comic 1616 - Outside the Wall

9th Jul 2019, 9:00 PM
Outside the Wall
Average Rating: 5 (18 votes)

Author Notes:

Centcomm 9th Jul 2019, 10:21 PM edit delete
Okay Honesty here. I love the way Iray looks but i cant wait for 7 hours for a single render. I mean pages are slow enough as it is. Whats strangling my computer is that i have a AMD video card and Daz refuses to use AMD hardware so my CPU is doing all the work- i'm also hitting a hard wall on my RAM. So im going to go back to doing it all in 3delight. maybe a panel here and there but Most will be in 3delight.
Centcomm 16th Jul 2019, 8:07 AM edit delete
Thank you all that have donated towards the new card. HUGS to all of you! Ive tried to reply to you on emails but some of them come back as bad emails - Stupid hotmails mostly.
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Haegan2005 9th Jul 2019, 9:54 PM edit delete reply

Okay, I admit that I would want to open the throttle too!
megados 9th Jul 2019, 10:09 PM edit delete reply

Skeeter sounds a lot like Marvin. ;)

Wanting to see how fast it'll go usually comes right before you crash it. XD
Lurker314 9th Jul 2019, 10:12 PM edit delete reply
Definitely Marvin.
Centcomm 9th Jul 2019, 10:15 PM edit delete reply

Btw looove the Icon! :D And you might be right about Skeeter
megados 10th Jul 2019, 5:09 AM edit delete reply

Thank you, Cent! It's by HeSerpenty (For those who don't know, HeSerpenty does the Serpents of Old Comic, (check it out!) and also commissions!)

Re: A/N, I completely understand. IRAY does add a layer of realism, but if it takes so much longer, you have to do something, either as you suggest, or figuring out what you need to have to make it manageable.
Mark_L_A 10th Jul 2019, 7:53 PM edit delete reply

Did you know that my dog's name is Skeeter?

Well one of my dog's are named Skeeter. There's also Layla, Goldie, Kyah, Stella, Quinley, and Daisy

DLKmusic 11th Jul 2019, 1:56 PM edit delete reply

Dang it Mark, you used all the good names... I'm stuck with "Spot" now!
Oldarmourer 12th Jul 2019, 12:55 PM edit delete reply
eight month old puppy with paws bigger than my hand...
Her name is "stop that" nicknamed "get off the cat"
Mark_L_A 26th Jul 2019, 1:43 AM edit delete reply

Evervigilant 10th Jul 2019, 1:42 AM edit delete reply
Cent I guess an alternative set of questions would be how hard would it be to replace your video card with an Nvidia and how strong of a card would you need? Also what type of memory do you run, and how much do you currently have vs how much you need? Depending on the answers it may not be to expensive to upgrade. You might be surprised and some viewers might be willing to help with the necessary upgrades if they like the Iray look as well.
Marcus Ramesy 10th Jul 2019, 7:29 AM edit delete reply

(Real world persona) Evervigilant, she whould need a 1080 card or better to be able to match the time frame she is doing now for the renders (we did some experimentation on iray using my system (using a nvidia 1080) and renders took between 30 mins to an hour depending on complexity.. the more complex the scene the more time it will take to render... the 20xx series cards would be perfect for what she is doing but at 800 to 1200 for a video card its a chuck of change thats hard to come by... even the 1080 ti cards are still clocking in between 600 and 1000 depending on vendor.. (can get cheaper from frys electronics) so short answer.. replacing a video card is easy... if you have the money for it... its just aquiring funds.
velvetsanity 10th Jul 2019, 1:40 PM edit delete reply

Let’s put a pool together to get her a 2080ti. That should fix render times.

If other people want to step up to chip in on that, please say something :)
Marcus Ramesy 10th Jul 2019, 1:48 PM edit delete reply

im all for it.. Cent knows ill pitch in assistance as I can..
Evervigilant 11th Jul 2019, 3:33 AM edit delete reply
Donated via pay pal to help. You might also look at Newegg online for parts. I've built my own home computers using them for years and have had good luck. I see the 2070 on there for around mid to upper 400.00's
Oldarmourer 10th Jul 2019, 2:50 PM edit delete reply

Perfectly willing to do what I can, the exchange rate vs the Cdn dollar is pretty good for people in the US right now, not so good for us, might save a few dollars ordering from up here and have it shipped south. As I understand it, there's no duty on electronics anymore either.
Sheela 14th Jul 2019, 2:06 PM edit delete reply

On a sidenote, how much ram is in her computer ?
Oldarmourer 10th Jul 2019, 3:42 AM edit delete reply

I'll be honest, I've spent a lot of time comparing the past few pages to others and if this one is done in Iray then I prefer the older ones, if it isn't then my eyes are shot, which isn't impossible.

Originally I liked the look of the 'dust in the fading sunlight' effect but in panel 2 her face and blouse look extremely 'grainy' to me rather than softly shadowed. That might be my eyes, my monitor, my video card or my imagination, I don't know.

So far my favourite facial renditions (that I can think of at this second) have been Ada going into combat mode and TeeDee activating sprite.ini, they're so detailed, right down to the wrinkles on Ada's nose when she snarls at the blewbs, I simply don't see that here and while I really, really like the story and the characters in this arc, and the art is head and shoulders above 99% of the rest of the net, it's still missing something, for me anyway, I can only give it 9.5/10 (which rounds up to a 5 on the voting page ;) )

If you really want to use Iray and need an Nvidia card to make it work properly, start a gofundme or just put up a formal donation request, I'll chip in for sure and we'll see what a bleeding edge (or a one generation down slightly scabbed over but cheaper and faster to get) card can do.

RAM isn't that expensive, I don't know what the limit is on your system but if someone will pledge to match me, I'll kick in $50 towards a stick right now.

and just to make this one of 'my' posts...found Commander Pauline's latest encounter in another comic that's simple but hilarious, I don't know what the girls think about cross linking but I read about 75-100 different ones and I've mentioned DC to a few people on other ones so...

read this in Pauline's voice

edit: the bodies do look a lot more realistic overall, the joints in particular and the young girl's knees in specific, but still a tad grainy. A few poses in the last arc in the park looked a bit off, compared to the usual quality, so maybe that's a bad thing to compare to ?

I've been archive diving recently and what comes to my mind as the best work so far was the battle scenes in the palace, particularly the faces in Ada and TeeDee's part, there's just something 'je ne sais quoi' to those dozen or so pages that really looks amazing for any 3D art and I'll consider it the benchmark (until I remember something better ;) ) The characters and placeables in this page look even better than that in some parts but there's something that doesn't quite match and it affects the comparison, maybe it's the outdoor setting and the lighting with that ?

Don't get me wrong, they look fantastic and so does the script, it reads so naturally that you never think to comment on it because that's the way it should be and it just registers as being 'right', I imagine Rose is so glad not to have to think in douchimus' voice anymore ;)
Anyone else making 3D should be jealous of the work, there's just something that doesn't look as good as usual to me. Maybe we can get you better tools and see what happens, if nothing else that should make the render times for the pre-Iray style faster so you'll have more time for other things.
robnot 10th Jul 2019, 7:15 AM edit delete reply
i have to agree with Oldarmourer.. prefur 3delight to Iray... but im on a ten year old system , an need glasses...
Siren 10th Jul 2019, 8:12 AM edit delete reply
Graininess can be difficult to avoid in iray scenes with low lighting - even official Daz promo art tends to have some.
Siren 10th Jul 2019, 8:08 AM edit delete reply
Even if you are considering a Nvidia, you'd probably need one of the more expensive ones to fit a scene with multiple figures with clothing and hair for each, plus a set and props.

That last scene in 3DL looked great, so I totally understand why Iray might not be worth the hassle. You could look into experimenting with setting gamma correction to 2.2 (and 'on', both in render settings) in 3DL if black shadows are one of the things you don't like. It makes the way light fall off works more physically accurate.

Almost all lights and most shaders/materials with velvet, opacity, or reflection will require adjustment though, so it might still be a hassle unworthy of your time.
Andrew Armstrong 10th Jul 2019, 9:05 AM edit delete reply
IFF you can figure out what item would improve the render time enough to make a difference, then tell us the cost, maybe several of us can chip in a bit towards the new graphics card or RAM? I don't know if a gofund me is the right way to do it or better just to tell us how much you need and people chip in something towards it until there is enough - but either way I will contribute maybe $20 if there is a plan. Would be more but I just lost my largest customer to a large design consultancy who were chosen because they "should finish the job faster", but who have made no progress in the last 3 weeks. [sigh].
Marcus Ramesy 10th Jul 2019, 9:59 AM edit delete reply

see my post above under evervigilants post.
Russell Jensen 10th Jul 2019, 10:13 AM edit delete reply
Hey Cent- I'm always coming across used video cards for PC's. Can't help much if it's a laptop, but if you have minimum/preferred specs on a desktop card, let me know.

You'll also want to do a quick check on the power connectors available from the PSU and the total length of card your case can support... some of these cards are llllloooonnnngggggg.... :-)
Marcus Ramesy 10th Jul 2019, 11:47 AM edit delete reply

I do most of cents Tech work, her psu can handle damn near any thing.. would like to see her get in to a gtx1080 and the bare minimum.. her desktop is the same as mine just runing a Radeon card vrs nvidia..
Oldarmourer 10th Jul 2019, 1:04 PM edit delete reply

So swap her cards, problem solved ;)

I think we can pull this off, or I hope we can anyway, somebody organize it and I'll do my part.
I'm purely selfish when it comes to my entertainment and I always want more :)
velvetsanity 10th Jul 2019, 1:44 PM edit delete reply

I’ll happily chip in if others will.
Marcus Ramesy 10th Jul 2019, 1:46 PM edit delete reply

*chuckleS* you can have my 1080 after I upgrade or when you pry it from my cold dead corps.. I use it for VR applications.. :P and the occasional Iray render
DLKmusic 10th Jul 2019, 3:30 PM edit delete reply

@marcus: This might work, and the price looks good!

RX 2070 for around 500.00
Oldarmourer 10th Jul 2019, 4:25 PM edit delete reply
how about we collect half the price of a 2080 for you and you give her your old 1080 ? ;)
Marcus Ramesy 10th Jul 2019, 9:49 PM edit delete reply

if I was a little more flush on funds i woudl be all over that.. .. ill be checking the prices on friday when I go in to town at the local place... but I woudl honestly prefer to see Cent get a better card than me... as much as I woudl want a 2080.. I think she can use it more..
Marcus Ramesy 11th Jul 2019, 6:05 AM edit delete reply

after checking newegg... the price of a 2080 is between 620 and 800... wich is significantly more reasonable than other prices I have been seeing on them lately.. (we all know amazon sucks) so if we can raise 800 plus tax for the card.. we can be in business...
Oberoten 10th Jul 2019, 1:54 PM edit delete reply

One alternative might be a system with two Nvidia card of a lower rank. It should still get the job done with power to spare.
Marcus Ramesy 10th Jul 2019, 2:05 PM edit delete reply

in theory you could use tow 960s in sli mode.. but I cant speak from any experiance.. the architecture drasticaly changed on the 10xx series cards was one of the reasons I went with one of those as apposed to 2 of the 980's I know that daz will use as many cuda cores as you can throw at it to render in iray... just not sure how it would perform with the ... setting up a render farm is out of the question because the way cent does her workflow it would slow her down more than speed her up.. but a box with 4 980 cards for a render farm wouldn't be too shabby of a set up as a render farm.. just not usefull for Cents work.
Oberoten 10th Jul 2019, 2:21 PM edit delete reply

Here in Sweden we are soon starting to see the "Hollidays Upgrade" rush which means previously used cards come out to the market. With the enthusiasts that means that even the 1040 etc cards should be dropped in price. Perhaps the same would go for where you are with a bit of luck?
Marcus Ramesy 10th Jul 2019, 2:25 PM edit delete reply

its generaly the same... with the mining of cryptop curency the price of video cards went through the roof here.. its why a 700 dollar card is 1200 right now... because of supply and demand... im sure if i look hard enough I can find them at their normal retail prices..
Oldarmourer 10th Jul 2019, 3:39 PM edit delete reply

There's an idea, I do see some used cards at decent prices on Amazon, and Isuppose you could check e-bay but who knows if they've been overclocked or run hot until they're one step away from being bricks or what the actual cost will end up being ?

I've had some very bad experiences with Amazon, for instance I just received two items today I ordered at $9.99 each and the actual bill to my card was almost $100 after shipping and 'additional fees' that weren't mentioned in the initial transaction, I cancelled my account while they were in transit and won't be dealing with them again.

I'd suggest a used, open-box or refurbished card from a reputable dealer like NewEgg or up here TigerDirect or any other well known distributor would be as good as new, I've never had problems with that sort of purchase and have made quite a few, only Amazon has ever done me wrong so I'd suggest avoiding them like the plague.
Marcus Ramesy 10th Jul 2019, 3:59 PM edit delete reply

ive been a system builder for years... newegg has been my go to for most mail order.. some times amazon if I know what im getting at its new... I tend to get most of the stuff I need from frys electronics... ebay for those rare parts that I need that I cant afford the bazillion dollars for and dont mind getting used... and hey.. paypal insurs against bad purchases... ... but neweegg and tiger are definatly good places ..
Just_IDD 10th Jul 2019, 6:48 PM edit delete reply
Personally I avoid Amazon for the super cheap high end cards. You are so much more likely to end up with a doctored knockoff. I even see this problem for i350 network cards with fake driver chips.

Also Amazon has a habit of falsely boosting the product ratings by claiming all problems with their crap products are "fulfillment by Amazon" issues even if the review is about product quality not shipping delay. Read the reviews, I find it completely dishonest. At least with alibaba you know you are buying weird custom crap when you order it.
Blue_Elite 10th Jul 2019, 8:55 PM edit delete reply
Amazon's inhuman work culture along with it's abundance of knockoff products exploiting the likeness of original product brands are a bane of this existence. Computer parts, laptops, headphones. Stick with the tried and tested people.
Marcus Ramesy 10th Jul 2019, 9:51 PM edit delete reply

I have friends that work for amazon.. Ive heard the stories first hand... its why I generaly get what I need from other sources when it comes to computer parts.. now.. for electronics and 3d printer parts... im all over it like white on rice.. that and wish or geek...
Oldarmourer 12th Jul 2019, 2:39 AM edit delete reply

There's always another way...


stumbled across that this morning completely at random click here
Oldarmourer 11th Jul 2019, 12:41 PM edit delete reply
Maintained military aircraft and weapons systems including teaching the systems to component level for 20 years, been building my own computers since the 70's, I just don't get into the "must have highest possible power" cycle because I don't play high graphic intensive games, (luckily for my wallet :)).

Hence, while the capabilities of graphics cards is a little out of my realm of expertise and I settle for a "good enough for government work" approach to my own system, that's not good enough here and Cent needs the best we can get her to give us what we want, hopefully at a good enough price a little extra RAM fits into the budget too.

Shop around carefully, explore all avenues and pinch our pennies 'til they squeal...the more you save on the one leaves more for the other.
Oldarmourer 10th Jul 2019, 3:29 PM edit delete reply

My donation is in, the race is on....
mjkj 10th Jul 2019, 4:01 PM edit delete reply

*lol* Cyana's sense of sarcasm has not developed yet... =P

That is so cute =)

@alt text: yup...
Oldarmourer 10th Jul 2019, 4:21 PM edit delete reply
Why do I hear her channeling Noctis with that response ?

It's not that kids don't use sarcasm, it's that we still hear an innocent voice and say to ourselves "isn't that cute" when they're definitely being more sarcastic than they'll ever get away with as adults...especially the girls...devils without horns, all of them ;)
DLKmusic 10th Jul 2019, 6:16 PM edit delete reply

I think that the most EEEEVVILLLLLL of all sales pitches, EVER, was developed by the girl scouts.

"wanna buy some cookies mister?"
Oldarmourer 11th Jul 2019, 2:53 AM edit delete reply
Dope is legal up here now, I foresee Girl Guides camped in front of the 'licenced' outlets this fall...
Just_IDD 10th Jul 2019, 8:59 PM edit delete reply
For the record on the comic story...I don't think we will sadly have to worry about the grainyness of this girls knees for long.
Oldarmourer 11th Jul 2019, 2:55 AM edit delete reply
As I said before, remember who's writing this and grieve least ONE of them's not coming out of this unscathed, be it mentally, morally or physically, the only question right now is "which one?"
Rashala 10th Jul 2019, 11:53 PM edit delete reply

My bad feeling meter just redlined here....anyone else getting that feeling ttoo?
kraznor 11th Jul 2019, 1:38 AM edit delete reply
yes me too
Oldarmourer 11th Jul 2019, 2:57 AM edit delete reply
of course, Dolly might be taking a sabbatical, passing by on her way to Breaker's and drop in for a cool drink and save the day ;) or TeeDee might be out for some target practice with her GBFO PPC cannon where she can't hurt too much...we can hope...her's just hoping the kid isn't carrying taylor DNA and heading for a kidnapping...
Centcomm 11th Jul 2019, 12:16 PM edit delete reply

thisd girl is not related to the taylors in any way...
Oldarmourer 11th Jul 2019, 12:43 PM edit delete reply
You know that, and now we know that, but does douchimus II know that ? ;)
DLKmusic 11th Jul 2019, 1:54 PM edit delete reply

There is another possibility you're missing, Oldarmourer. And our Evil Duo has shown on multiple occasions that there is no low that they will refuse to stoop to... for our entertainment!

It's also possible that the water works gets attacked while she's out playing... leaving her and skeeter as the only two survivors.
Oldarmourer 11th Jul 2019, 2:55 PM edit delete reply

That's sort of what I'm expecting...and why Dolly or TeeDee would be showing up to rescue her
and with Tokyo Rose scripting it, I can see it already...

Scene: outside the wall, daylight fading rapidly

Setting: Cyana stands looking forlornly at her new toy, most of a saucer section in one hand, the engineering section minus two nacelles in the other

SFX: lights flashing wildly while sparks flicker along the broken edges with loud sputtering sizzles.

Cyana : *sighs sadly, her lip quivering a little as tears well up in her eyes*

Skeeter: Your control inputs exceeded design parameters, as expected.

Cyana: *sniffs then wipes her nose on the back of her arm*
Do you know what I want for my birthday, Skeeter ?

Skeeter: I have no method of determining your wishes in advance.

Cyana: Ten minutes alone with the jizz-gargling, syphilitic, pole smoking, genetic malfunction of a deranged yeast-filled twatburger that designed this over engineered, under built, pile of rancid dogshit covered in spare parts he found underneath a bombed out junkyard...

Skeeter: I'm not sure that's appropriate...*cutoff*

Cyana: and a bat !!!

Skeeter: Your actions were clearly resp...*cutoff again*

Cyana: Buckle it, cockjaws, or you'll be Commander Pauline's next vibrator and you know how hard she is on THOSE !!

Skeeter: *Buckles it*

Cyana: It was a fucking amateur design flaw from some third rate, make believe goatfucker with a photocopied fake degree pretending to know what he was doing, they shouldn't be marketing festering lumps of crap like this to innocent fucking children.

Skeeter: *Keeps it buckled*

Cyana: *smiles brightly and blows her nose on the hem of her dress*
Let's go find mommy she can unfuck anything those fuckers fuck up.

*runs toward the compound shouting "Mommy--Mommy--Mommy !!!*
...just as the frag and flames from the first explosion blasts through the wall carrying assorted body parts with them

note: portions of this conversation may or may not have been inspired by one which took place at 0300 in a sweltering Maintenance Hangar, crawling around under the floorboards to get at the one part that fries most often and is of course the hardest to get at

and you KNOW Centy already has it rendered and is just waiting for the dialogue to be added

Producer's note: To avoid difficulties with child labour laws, the part of Cyana in this pay-per-view episode is played by TPL-1935-4B. Temple is a 37 year old android famous both for her portrayal of child roles and diminutive aliens on numerous Luna Broadcasting System and other productions and for enduring the hazardous process of being loaded into a custom frame for her performances. Ms Temple may be reached through her fan club at Temple@LunaComm.ln
jawbone 11th Jul 2019, 8:15 PM edit delete reply

I've been hearing foreshadowing-darkness-music in my cranium ever since this part of the story opened.
Oldarmourer 12th Jul 2019, 2:34 AM edit delete reply
you mean like this ?
DLKmusic 14th Jul 2019, 4:30 PM edit delete reply

I think This is a little closer to what he had in mind.

Although I gotta say, this live version isn't nearly as foreboding as the original studio version was...

But this DEFINES awesome!!!!
Centcomm 16th Jul 2019, 8:13 AM edit delete reply

I like this!!
Oldarmourer 16th Jul 2019, 7:50 PM edit delete reply

which part ? the music ? or the bodies ?

Scene change: Compound interior

SFX: smoking hole in wall, various effects on various people

Establishing shot, no dialogue:

*Olina takes the remote from her pocket, a second panel in the building sliding open to reveal another mini-PPC muzzle tracking toward the second gutter as the shield grid flares around her in response to the third one firing at her, most of the first lies draped partly through the hole in the wall*

Gutter2: Shit--shit-shit where'd the bint get that ?

Gutter3: C'mon, light the bitch up

Gutter2: I'm trying, she's got... *cut off as the second blast hits him squarely leaving little more than smoking boots and a bad smell*

Gutter3 *turns to run back toward their transport then falls as Skeeter's onboard electrolaser cuts through him, the muzzle flash rippling over the shield surrounding Cyana directly under the drone*

Cyana: Fry 'em Mommy, that's the third bunch this week, can I have that one's necklace ?

*radio crackles*

Brayden's voice: is everything alright ? I looked back and saw smoke

*Olina's voice on radio*

It's fine, I think I'll add another turret to cover the outside of the south entrance. Hurry home once you're done with the delivery, I want to reinforce the armour on the tanker too.

*Braden on radio*

Roger, dear, we really should put more signs up but they probably can't read them anyway, Braden out.
Oldarmourer 11th Jul 2019, 3:22 PM edit delete reply

and they're looking for a nanny droid with combat features...I hear there's a slightly used one that just became available due to an upgrade...wonder if Olina does any contract work for Calliope ? ;)
Centcomm 14th Jul 2019, 12:57 AM edit delete reply

Mary Poppins 3025 style?
Oldarmourer 14th Jul 2019, 2:19 AM edit delete reply
dropping in on an anti-grav umbrella with a carpet bag full of goodies ? ;)
megados 14th Jul 2019, 7:59 AM edit delete reply

Sort of, except that it's an ion propelled anti-grav wakeboard, and the carpet bag is dimensionally transcendental. ;)
Oldarmourer 14th Jul 2019, 6:40 AM edit delete reply

It does raise the question...and they don't need to be answered spoilerwise ;)

We know android bodies are 'reuseable' if you transfer the entire brain module instead of a flash image.

Feelie was popped into the Commander Pauline body which we assume had a prior owner since it needed 'sterilized' or maybe it was just one that didn't sell and she was actually the first user ?

We've been told that Dolly can't revert to her old body since too many changes were made to her brain etc.

Would Calliope just junk Dolly's old body ?
or is there too much sentiment attached to it ?
or was it damaged during her brain module shift ?
(there's an out for you ;) )

Would Calliope, or Dolly for that matter, allow it to be used as another guardian ?
or would that point out the differences between Dollys' new model 5+ frame and her old one to anyone seeing both and make them ask too many questions ?

Would Dolly be psychologically affected possibly even entering into a catatonic state triggered by seeing herself moving around with a strangers' personality ?

Questions, questions, questions...riddles inside riddles...layers upon layers...
The Devious Duo has given me a headache, again, mission accomplished...
megados 14th Jul 2019, 8:47 AM edit delete reply

I'll preface this saying that my understanding has been assembled piecemeal, and that the Creative Team is pretty good about straightening out misunderstandings. XD

"We've been told that Dolly can't revert to her old body since too many changes were made to her brain etc."

The way I envision that, is that Dolly's persona was transferred from one synth brain to another. Her new synth brain is more complex, owing to the greater complexity of her new body. Basically, Dolly's persona grew, and was augmented to interface with her new body. How to put this? The macro algorithm that is actually 'Dolly' grew into the new brain. At the same time, I have the impression that the process is a 'destructive read' operation, meaning that the old synth brain is permanently damaged. The synth brain could be replaced with a new blank one, but there remains a problem. Since Dolly's persona has grown in complexity, she would either be pixelated, or truncated to be put back into the smaller simpler synth brain. Dolly would no longer be Dolly. The only hope for that, would be if Dr. Silver could somehow manually tweak changes to revert Dolly to her earlier version without destroying memory aquired since. Doesn't sound easy to me.

"Would Calliope just junk Dolly's old body ?"

Probably not, for the reason you mention, and because the old body is actually Dolly's property.

"Would Calliope, or Dolly for that matter, allow it to be used as another guardian ?"

My guess would be that neither one would really want to let go of it, but I think it's ultimately Dolly's choice to make.

"Would Dolly be psychologically affected possibly even entering into a catatonic state triggered by seeing herself moving around with a strangers' personality ?"

I don't think so; Dolly might get a passing feeling about it, but probably manage to shrug it off. We have seen her wrestle with things before. :D
Oldarmourer 14th Jul 2019, 10:15 AM edit delete reply

Yup, for Dolly it was a one-way trip, that was made pretty clear since she was going where no droid had ever gone before, but did moving her 'module' affect the synth brain in her old body like a flash or is that one still able to take a new 'module' like the bodies Ada and TeeDee and Feelie transferred into ? Dr Silver said she'd rather do a thousand module moves than one flash reload.

Leaving Dolly aside for a moment, does moving an existing androids' 'personality module' to a new body affect the old one ? It doesn't seem to, unless Jordan and Ivy got the Pauline body unused in the lot they purchased.

Now I'm wondering, when an android upgrades, do they turn in their old body, if it's still useable, to offset the cost of a new one ?
Is there a stamp on their butt saying "return for deposit where applicable ?"

Do newly 'sparked' androids have the option to choose between a used or new body for their first one ?
Is there a big price difference depending on age ?
We saw Dolly choose a lower end model for her first body and the reasons she had seemed pretty good ones at the time, but she did upgrade at least once before Calliope gave her the Model 5+.

Is that why Connie has had a big debt, because she still owed on her original body when it got blown up ?
or did her employer pay that one off for being liable and she only owed for the upgrades she took ?
Minx had a similar situation and she took some pretty iffy contracts to pay it off, was she 'uninsurable' ?

Is there a big market for 'body insurance' as we saw TeeDee and Ada cash in on, or are employers held liable for damages the employed android didn't cause ?
If someone runs over an android or negligently or deliberately damages a body beyond repair can a Court order payment ?

TeeDee and Ada had their bodies destroyed on duty which would most likely be a bona fide job hazard and a good reason why androids are used instead of humans for such duties, but they mentioned using insurance to cover their new bodies so was that something solely to cover upgrades ?

You know the story and characters are compelling when you find yourself asking this many stupid questions and trying to come up with sensible answers.

Brava ladies :)

Who pays for an android's new body if theirs gets trashed through no fault of their own ?
megados 14th Jul 2019, 10:55 AM edit delete reply

The way I understand it, is that there are three ways to migrate to a new body. One is moving the entire brain and brain case to a new body. That's what Jordan and Ivy did with Ophelia. It's kind of dependant on the two bodies being reasonably compatible; the MACCS connections would have to be reasonably similar.

The second way, would be to do a direct transfer as in when Dolly was transferred to her new body. You couldn't transfer the hardware like Jordan and Ivy did, because it would be incompatible with her new body, or not set up to work that way.

The third way, would be as with TeeDee and Ada, to upload their 'essence'; their persona to a Q-drive.

The first way is a hardware exchange, and the other two are more or less software exchanges. I have the impression that the software exchange is 'destructive read' or in other words, leaves the synth brain you migrate out of, in an unusable condition.

In the tech page, the andriod seed generation, and the maturing in the model zero body is explained. The model zero is their first body, as it's explained there.

As far as the commercial side of android body production, sales and service, there seems to be a lot of variation. It seems to be somewhat like how we view buying and selling cars. You can get new or used, fancy or plain. If you're wealthy or well connected you could have one or more spares. If you have more modest means you take out a loan, hence 'body debt'. Beyond the basics, I don't know any more than was said about individuals' circumstances, or who pays for incidental repairs or replacements.
Oldarmourer 14th Jul 2019, 11:02 AM edit delete reply
That's pretty much the way I see it, the insurance part leaves me wondering if androids have to put up with having their doors knocked on by agents trying to sell them body insurance ;)
Oldarmourer 14th Jul 2019, 4:00 PM edit delete reply

I can just picture the conversation at TeeDee's door...

*Knock-knock* Hello...*hesitates*...Ma'am ?
I represent Troyco Insurance, in fifteen minutes I can save you 15% on a full body policy.

No, fuck off *Ttzzaaammm!!!*
Go cash yours in.

Ada!!! We need to get that doormat cleaned..again.
Oh, and I used your gun, I'll charge it.
megados 14th Jul 2019, 5:08 PM edit delete reply

I'd have thought they'd have hit up TeeDee's liability insurance. :D
Oldarmourer 14th Jul 2019, 4:21 PM edit delete reply
looks like after a module move you can 'wipe and reset' the old frame or keep it as a spare since it's already synced.

I kind of thought it was but 1650 strips plus staff comments and other canonical things is a lot to remember, I'm lucky to remember why I came in a room, even the bathroom ;)
megados 14th Jul 2019, 5:07 PM edit delete reply

I guess I interpreted that as the hardware move type of transfer. She's sync'ed up to the body, as in her motor commands are already calibrated/she already has values stored. There should be no need to wipe anything, because her whole module (synth brain and brain case) was moved to the other body. I could be wrong.
Oldarmourer 15th Jul 2019, 2:52 AM edit delete reply
That's the way I see it, but the various sub-processors, internal data busses and actuators in the body have been programmed and set to match the outputs of her specific brain module so if anyone other than her were to be loaded in, it would first have to be reset to factory standard to prepare to sync with that module. That was likely one of the problems with the Q-transfer, no chance to reset her brain module first so it had to sync up the hard way..sort of like replacing an AMD vidcard with an Nvidia and trying to render a scene straightaway after powering up without loading the drivers.
megados 15th Jul 2019, 5:35 AM edit delete reply

Some of that depends on how things work in the DC Universe.

In cases like these, I have only present-day analogies to go by. You would have an actuator with an encoder to inform of it's position, for example. A sub-processor is in direct control of this actuator. Upon initialization, the main processor directs the sub-processor to do a range of motion assessment. The sub-processor then runs the actuator from end stop to end stop and the encoder range values are stored. You would not want to wipe these, because they are unit-specific. The main processor sends actuator commands to the sub-processor which keeps all the details of that actuator. If you were to replace a main processor, you might want these values intact, if the main processor queries for them, or sends actuator commands. The sync-up happens when the main processor starts operating everything. Command lags, response times, acceleration and deceleration curves under various conditions, etc., are all noted by the sub-processor. The response of, say, all the actuators in an arm, work in unison to make a particular motion happen. That changes when the arm has to pick up an additional weight. The sub-processor has to be able to make these calculations. It has to rely on information from the specific encoders and sensors to do this. If the application specific sub-processors (which these would be) are wiped, that would add a lot of overhead to the sync-up process, since all that body-specific data would have to be reacquired. In actual practice, (at least in today's terms) you'd have a sub-processor in control of an arm, and the main processor issuing operational commands. If you have to change the main processor, you leave the arm controller alone.. (Please note that this is a very over-simplified version.)

Long story short version, would be that I think the sub-processors would be left alone, since logically they should only contain body-specific data, such as encoder ranges, sensor settings, bias variables and stuff like that, and the sync-up learning curve is incumbent on the new synth-brain to learn to coordinate all the hundreds of actuators, and their response curves, and acquiring all of the body specific data stored in the sub processors.

*edit: I have no words to describe my elation that the process (at least in today's systems) rarely involves installing drivers! >_< XD

*additional edit: There are times, such as when you replace an actuator, encoder, or sensor, etc., that you DO want to reset the sub-processor values. Response times, counts, and positions could vary, and you'd want to recalibrate. In the DC Universe, that might correlate to when an android sustains damage to an extent requiring component replacement.
Oldarmourer 16th Jul 2019, 5:22 AM edit delete reply

I think we're saying mostly the same thing from different directions.

I had a lot of practice with limit switches, hydraulic, pneumatic and electrical actuators, servos, control circuits, electronics both analog and digital, etc. including fault tracing/repair down to the discrete component level on multi-layer circuit boards and even taught them for awhile, but I stopped doing that 25 years ago, I forget most of it and things have changed a helluva lot since then...remember self-stepping multi plate relays ? I still have nightmares from being at the front of a classroom and running back and forth moving each set of hundreds of contacts on a 4'x16' wall panel then adding in the B+ and grid lines for the various tubes and tracing the circuits out through all the other relays, pressure switches, etc., etc., etc. to see what one blown resistor or failed set of contacts did to a specific input when it reached the output end o.O

I tend to think that an android's systems are much more than binary and more like analog or some sort of collection of multi-state quantum devices with varying outputs from varying inputs instead of on/off signals. This would give a much larger range on one 'wire', instead of needing a string of digital pulses or requiring a multi 'wire' cable for multiple bits in parallel, you'd just have a varying voltage for a +/- range from a reference.

Everything, even in the 39th century, has to have some sort of tolerance unless it's built to the exact same number of atoms for each copy. I think that might be what gives androids their distinct personalities, a variance in the millions or billions of connections and voltages, not to mention the 'spark' and after seeing Ada appear to TeeDee for a comforting chat during her reload when Ada's 'brain' was not only completely offline but badly damaged and with no apparent means of communicating, I sort of think there's something a little more outside of the physical realm to it than even that and there's something beyond 1's and 0's and hardware that makes an android a 'me' and not a thing. Maybe that's the data they're chasing ?

Given that there must be tiny variances in artificial muscle fibres, there must be tiny variances in available strength and range of motion for each and every component, mechanical or biomechanical, in each body and taking it as a whole, each one would be very specific in it's abilities and references. Each brain module would likewise be different in the reference voltages it sends out and would require a careful synchronization to know exactly what it has to work with and how to control it.

We know android muscles and joints can be driven beyond their design limits from what Noctis and her sisters went through at the hands of a cyberpath.

I'd speculate that there's a 'maximum rated limit' then a 'never exceed' limit and a 'design limit' and then an actual 'fail point' for each system, mechanical or neural and each body and brain module has their own with the 'rated limit' being the one used for reference and the 'fail point' being dependent on the various tolerances taken together and that 'this should have failed by now, why hasn't it ?' state of the stubbornness of a particular component or the 'damn, that should have lasted longer' point that defines 'broken'.

TeeDee's reload problems seem to be mostly software in that she didn't let her systems adapt but kept fighting them out of spite until she finally ran the sprite.ini and got everything synched properly. Dolly had difficulty at first because she expected subsystem 'x' and got subsystem 'y' instead and had to calibrate everything, including her memory to use the new systems instinctively instead of thinking directly about them.

Neither of them were given, or they simply didn't use, the proper time to get the systems settled down and tuned before needing to use them. It's like taking a boxful of parts, putting them together into an engine without calibrating anything and then expecting to win a drag race the very first time you start might, but you'd be better off running it for awhile to tune it first.

brains and bodies are like a crashbox transmission, you have to mesh them together just right or it's going to stall or chip the gears ;)

I don't know whether to soundly thank or roundly curse the creative staff for making me think this much about things I'd assumed I'd never need again and try to apply them to a fictional work, either way it's a testament to the depth of story and the 'realness' of it when so many people get this deeply involved in trying to get behind the intricacies of the world and it's inhabitants and try to figure out the wheres and whyfors of things that don't even exist today. Thanks for giving me the chance to recycle some old memories, now if I could only find my watch...
megados 16th Jul 2019, 6:21 AM edit delete reply

I agree with a lot of that; would like to expound on some bits.

The first thing, is that it doesn't really matter exactly what the body consists of, or how it actually works. The key to their personhood lies within the synth brain. Case in point: Ophelia, and TeeDee both. Ophelia was rescued, and her brain and brain case, (or module if you prefer) was moved from one body to another. She was still Ophelia, she just looked different. The same with TeeDee, when she was moved into her "correct body". Their personalities didn't change, they were still themselves. That informs us that the body doesn't have anything that affects their persona beyond their own body self image.

Since components (even fancy 39th century ones) do indeed have tolerances, and those tolerances have to be accounted for and calibrated, and since sub-processors usually handle that sort of thing, and don't have an appreciable effect on the androids' personality traits, it sort of makes my case for not wiping anything in the body in the event of a body swap. All of these variables, such as max limits, range of motion, response times, acceleration, deceleration and on and on, exist in the sub-processors, (or whatever serves that purpose) and doesn't change, unless the components themselves change. It also reiterates my assertion that the sync-up process involves learning the new body's parameters. Even two identical bodies aren't identical due to the tolerances you mention.

Yes, they are people, with their own thoughts, desires, and emotions. I think that magic resides in the synth brain, and that the person that they are moves to a new body independently of what the old body was. Just as in a human person, the 'person' is in the brain.
Oldarmourer 16th Jul 2019, 6:50 AM edit delete reply

Oh yes, the body is a shell, it can be reused or recycled or destroyed and so long as the brain module isn't too badly damaged then life goes on and the body can be replaced, and even the brain module can be updated, CentComm sprung for a 'military grade' one for TeeDee, perhaps in case she got shot in the head by one of her dolls ? ;)

The 'brain module' seems to be where everything that makes an android their own person resides, mostly, there's still that little bit that seems to lie outside of it though and I've always sort of thought that being 'sparked' has a much deeper meaning than we've seen discussed so far.

I'm thinking the 'spark' and Ada's part in TeeDee's reload plus the church of the first circuit all come into play a lot further down the line, probably towards the end of the third arc, and it's going to have a very large impact on the story that we're not supposed to get into spoiler territory on just yet.

I've hesitated to speculate on that aspect for a long time because I don't want to put Cent or TR in the position of having to confirm/deny/refuse to comment this early and I think I'll just let it stop here for now :)

Gaahhh..not only do they have me dredging up long forgotten technical bits and pieces but now I'm into metaphysical contemplation as well...these girls are GOOD !!!!
Centcomm 16th Jul 2019, 8:09 AM edit delete reply

hehe i love this kind of contemplation! I love you guys!
megados 16th Jul 2019, 8:24 AM edit delete reply

It's because of you and Rose, that this kind of contemplation can be had here! Kudos, thanks, and I love you guys (ladies) too! :D
Oldarmourer 16th Jul 2019, 9:07 AM edit delete reply

I wish I could be that concise, see below :P
Oldarmourer 16th Jul 2019, 9:07 AM edit delete reply

Not as much as we love what you are all doing for us :)

Out of all the things I read on the net, and that's pretty much my main hobby at the moment and has been for years, this is just about the most intriguing and thought provoking story I've run across, the possibilities are endless and every time I think I've got a rough idea about what's happening, something else surfaces to make me reconsider or it's just different enough from what I put out as a theory to make it still a new thing. Even when I'm right, I'm wrong and I enjoy that level of creativity...a lot.

and my sincere thank yous to ALL of the commenteers (as in mouseketeers but better) for not only putting up with my incessant ramblings and theorizing but aiding and abetting me in the process...

I'm not trying be fawning or obsequious or a suckup in general, that sort of thing disgusts me.
Anyone who knows me and heard that description would say "Who? Man, you're WAY off"
I simply and strongly believe in giving credit where credit is due and making sure people know why it's due.

I still think a good TWC logo for DC would be
"come for the story, stay for the comments, the violence, the nudity and the profanity...especially the #$%^&* profanity"


"Datachasers, we have an 'R' rating and we're not afraid to USE it !!"
Thracecius 16th Jul 2019, 10:54 AM edit delete reply

I read everything you and Megados wrote about android brains and bodies and probably only understand about a third of it, but it was entertaining nonetheless. Electronics and engineering are not in my wheelhouse, but I'm a hobbyist system builder because it's less expensive and easy enough that I don't have to suffer waiting for someone else to build it for me. When I was younger and more enthusiastic I learned a little more about computers than the average person, but now that I'm middle-aged I just want the bloody thing to work properly when I push the power button. :)

Since all the speculation so far has been that one or all of these folks are going to become ex-parrots, I'm going to go for the unexpected and say that all of them survive. After all, who'd ever guess that could happen?*

*Do I actually believe my prediction? Not really, I just like to balance the scales sometimes to be contrary. Optimism still runs in my veins. :)
megados 16th Jul 2019, 6:05 PM edit delete reply

Oh Dear. I didn't think anyone was actually going to read it. XD

Humans have sort of a system like that usually called 'motor memory'. An example is when you learn to type. At first you concentrate on the keys, and pressing them. Once you learn it though, you don't think of pressing keys any more, but just the words. Motor memory makes the actual keystrokes transparent to the process. In automated systems, sub-processors, (small computers in their own right) are used in much the same way. They take care of all the little details of controlling the areas they are responsible for. That takes away a lot of the computing load from a main processor, (or a synth brain in the case of the androids) and makes the operation much faster, smoother, and more efficient. Larger automated systems are most often set up that way.

I don't know exactly how the androids work, I just surmise that using that technique would be much more efficient, and bestow a sort of motor memory to them. Sub-processors working in unison under the direction of a synth brain would certainly allow for the characteristics we see, and the abilities they have.

In the end, it really doesn't matter how it works; it just does. :D

P.S. I also have hopes that these three are basically going to be OK somehow. (That's not to say I rule out any 'Holy Shit' moments! XD )
Oldarmourer 16th Jul 2019, 7:21 PM edit delete reply

from Megados: In the end, it really doesn't matter how it works; it just does.

And THAT is the essence of sci-fi and something I've said myself.

It doesn't really matter how something works so long as it works consistently (until it doesn't need to in order to move a plot forward) it just does.

The official Star Trek TNG manual even referenced that.. "it just does", they also had onscreen pipes labelled 'GNDN' (Goes Nowhere Does Nothing) and a sci-fi book I can't remember the name of even had an 'IJD drive'.

The important part is that when discussing the various ways things work in a world, we can theorize, postulate, consider and even debate the various applications of established tech but never, ever argue with the creators about it. It's their story and if they want to say there are pocket fusion generators, then there are. If they want to say orbital lasers are powered by unicorn farts then we have to accept that there's a stable attached to each one. It doesn't have to mirror what we know today because we damned sure don't know everything.

Who are we to say what's possible almost 2000 years from now when if you showed your cell phone to someone only 200 years ago you'd have a good chance of being burned at the stake for a witch.

With aliens helping out, maybe there's a way to get fusion out of other elements than hydrogen to helium, maybe there's a particular combination of heavier elements that can fuse a lot more easily ?

Once upon a time it was thought that if you went faster than 60mph you would die from the stress...I beat that on the way home from the new Spiderman movie (very well done, go see it) and it was gospel that the wings would fall off of a plane if it exceeded the speed of sound and that we could never make it to the moon...we did, now the trick's in going back.

In the end, no matter what we come up with here, the story is going to have what the writers put into it, not what we'd put into it and that's a good thing, I hate knowing how a story's going to end before I'm done reading it.
megados 16th Jul 2019, 8:03 PM edit delete reply

But decent sci-fi doesn't have to rely on unicorn farts. :D
Oldarmourer 16th Jul 2019, 8:11 PM edit delete reply

distilled rainbow essence ?

The tech here is recognizable even to today's standards, it's just very, very advanced but still quite plausible and much of it I have no doubt will already be in production before the next century let alone the next millenium, there's science fiction and then there's science fantasy and so far this is more fiction than fantasy but the science part is undeniably well thought out and well implemented.
Thracecius 17th Jul 2019, 10:22 AM edit delete reply

from Megados: In the end, it really doesn't matter how it works; it just does.

And that's all I care about in sci-fi, or any story really, is consitency. If you tell me that you can go faster than light, but not how, I just take it on faith that it was figured out, so long as you don't try to explain it away with technobabble, because then I am going to try and deconstruct what you're attempting to obfuscate.

In truth, I prefer adventure sci-fi over the hard stuff, though Niven, Pournelle, Carver, and so forth count as some of my favorites and they are considered such. Sometimes writers just know how to get it right AND make good characters. That's one reason I read Datachasers. :)
megados 18th Jul 2019, 6:42 PM edit delete reply

I mostly think similarly. I guess what might be some main differences, would be that math and science have always been my strong points, and machines have always intrigued me. Back when computers started to come into their own, I was hooked.

In cases like these, "it just works" is good enough to enjoy the story, but I often find myself filling in the gaps for my own excersize, but I only have the technology of today to base it on. Instead of looking for holes, though, I tend to try to extrapolate ways in which it could be so.

I, too, like a good story, and DataChasers has that, plus the Creative Duo doesn't try to BS their way through the tech part as you point out. They'll put a concept out there but don't try to gloss it with impossible technobable.
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