Well... Let's put it axiomatically that religion is domain of sapients. As I understand it positronic brains, while complex, are not actually sapient. Which leaves us few options:
*This is an old-model/experimental positronic brain that gained sapience due to some glitch in manufacturing or similar. Maybe highly exceptionally.
*It might be older-model "regular" android brain without normal age-limit. Fabricated before those limits were legislated and grandfathered or something.
Name "Zero" and Samanta's reaction give us vague hints that this being might have considerable history or (religious) clout. Prophet who started the church, famous monk in vein of Zenyatta/Mondatta (from Overwatch backstory) or something...
The first positronic emergence into sentience in-universe, (that I know of) is in Luna Star, predating DataChasers. She is Sebastian's (Jet) project android, introduced here.
R Daneel Olivaw might also take exception.There is certainly nothing in Asimov's original conception of the 'positronic' brain that prohibits sapience and a good bit of circumstantial suggestion in his later writings that they do eventually develop it.
I've been wanting to learn more about the Church; it has been mentioned many times, also Samanta's role as Chaplain, and the belief itself. I should have paid more attention in my BSL* class.
It is quite calming. @Centcomm, you did get the image out through your hands!
Since "computers" start counting AT "Zero" (as in: Zero, One, Two, Three, etc), then there's a case for Zero being the "Pope" of the Church (for lack of a better word). Conversely, there could be another named "One", and they share the duties. Or, they renounce their names and take as their moniker the sacred names of either Zero or One.
My take on it is that anything (anyone) whose mind is complex enough to wonder whether they have a soul, probably does.
That is, if you believe in souls at all. It's less a positive assertion than a statement that no species has an exclusive metaphysical status that others do not.
Depends on how you define it. If you define 'soul' as 'a self-aware mind with the capacity for behavioral growth and change' then yes, they (and I) have a soul. If you define it as 'mystical exclusionary mumbo-jumbo', then probably not.
Hypothetically, sentient synthbrain androids roll off the assembly lines in any desired quantities and are governed by the laws requiring a circumscribed longevity, BUT positronic sentiences have been known to emerge. We don’t know if all positronic sentiences are ‘unplanned’ or not. We also don’t know if they also have a legally circumscribed longevity. If positronic emergence is sufficiently rare, it might be that the law does not apply to them — in which case Zero might well be the founder of the Church of the First Circuit. It might not just be his name, but also his membership number. ^_^
There are a couple of things you point out that raise even more questions. We know of the prescribed longevity cap as it exists in New Troy, and we can surmise that it isn't an embedded function of the synth brain, because of the sequence that Disaster Juice did about the runaway android that crashed in the wastes, and the girl Nayelli (sp?) took care of. I didn't look it up. It's either left up to the honor system, or barring that, apprehension. We don't really know if a longevity cap is practiced or enforced in all areas.
After the first positronic emergence, I wonder if they looked at it and said "Oh, hey! Look at this; let's do it again!", and thus began some kind of research into positronic sentience, with possibly varying degrees of success, leading to early synth brain research.
Regardless, the underlying question remains unanswered: "Did they, or did they not make the longevity cap retroactive when they implemented it. Whether it came into being before or after the development of synth brains may end up being irrelevant. The only thing, I surmise, that would make it relevant, is whether both positronic brains and synth brains exhibit similar degradation over time, since that was the reason given for the implementation of the longevity cap.
I think it's a good assumption, that if Zero isn't a founder, he's at least a well respected Elder.
@Megados -- "The only thing, I surmise, that would make it relevant, is whether both positronic brains and synth brains exhibit similar degradation over time, since that was the reason given for the implementation of the longevity cap."
Where did you get this from? I don't recall any canon source for this, and it does not seem rational. Since personalities can easily migrate from one synthbrain to another, hardware longevity would seem to be irrelevant as justification for a longevity cap. The restriction, as I recall, is on personality longevity. I don't think we've ever had a justification for it offered, but the impression I get is that the purpose of the longevity cap is to keep humans from becoming even more obsolete as androids both outreproduce them and outlive them.
It was in a comments section discussion. To be honest, I'm somewhat at a loss exactly where, but I do remember Sheela (speaking of, Sheela has been conspicuously absent of late), was also in on the discussion. It was specifically about the longevity cap. The reason was that degradation brought about some sort of dementia. I do not remember whether Tokyo Rose or Centcomm was involved in the discussion. The reason I remembered it at all, was that I was asserting that very premise, and that there should be no reason for any degradation at all, since even today, software has an ability, to a certain extent, to be self-repairing. In the event of hardware deficiencies, they can be detected by software and circumvented, even today. I was kind of argued down, so I took it for what it was.
So, it's admittedly flimsy as I can't really tell you exactly where it was, but maybe either someone else also remembers it, or it's possible I am misremembering something.
Interesting. If some variation of the Xerox Effect is the reason for the longevity cap there are all sorts of plausible explanations for it. I wonder if we will eventually see a more adult Lynn forced to deal with Dolly confronting the android equivalent of Alzheimer’s. That would certainly be tragic.
But it does leave room for the longevity cap to apply to synthbrains only, or for there to be a different span allocated to positronics, based on differing performance over time. Perhaps they are still waiting for Zero to exhibit the first signs of synth-dementia? Or maybe Zero, seeing a hottie like Samanta, will have a mid-life crisis, go out and buy a sporty red hovercar, and go out to recapture his lost youth? ^_^
This also suggests that A.I.S. technology is positronic in nature — and only given its vastly greater computing power by virtue of having city-sized brains — rather than neurosynthetic. Because CentComm is much older than 100 years but seemingly is exhibiting no signs of dementia.
"I wonder if we will eventually see a more adult Lynn forced to deal with Dolly confronting the android equivalent of Alzheimer’s. That would certainly be tragic."
Yes, it would be, and it's been something bothering me as well. Would it play out that way, or would Dolly be granted some special dispensation/care/treatment/measures/sporty red hovercar not available to any but the New Troy Elite?
megados: You could make the argument that her new body was created specifically to circumvent this law, and draw the law's very existence into question.
You could, but the body isn't really the person. AFAIK, the synth brain and the persona are what the law is centered on. If not for that, any android could simply get a new body every so often, and skirt the law indefinitely.
Given the rate of time passage in the story line vs real world, I think it is safe to say it is highly unlikely the story will progress to a point where Dolly is ever at risk of confronting her old age. We'll be lucky if Kyle and Lynn have enough passage of time to contemplate getting married. I don't think much more than six months has passed since the story began.
Interesting hypothesis. Does the hardware have to be positronic to gain sentience, since volume is not a constraint, or could it be a city's worth of [conventional] electronics? Do the positronics impart special attributes, or just save space? Both?
As far as I know, CENTCOMM is a huge computer complex which became sentient, her 'dolls' are exactly that, non-sentient machine she 'possesses' from time to time when she need mobility or something for people to talk to (or shoot) ;)
Basically, yes. CentComm has a number of dolls, (more or less drones) whose purpose is to interact with the humans. It's a psychologically sound premise to make the humans more at ease. Even shooting them has the effect of allowing the person to vent frustration. She knows it's best just to let them, and maybe charge them for damages later. Dolls are easily replaceable. CentComm could very well send an army of armed dolls in response, but that would be counter-productive. Doing that would cause the person, and possibly the populace at large, to begin to think that CentComm was becoming less of a protector, and more of a dictator/oppressor.
Translation:
"As in the thronged and the ways, so dark desert they stand, wary and watchful all their days that their brethren's days may long in the land."
Interesting and nice. (although you misplaced the space between the 70th and 71st character)
There is a shop near me titled "Martha and Brothers", in the hands of a Palestinian Christian family, but there not, to my understanding, any droids or synthbrains there.
It looks like that it is painted yellow, it's just heavily chipped, peeled and faded from years of hard service. Maybe a construction robot that somehow sparked on its own? Or it is a retired con bot that someone picked up and played with the programing and hardware till it sparked.
Is anyone other than me having trouble with the ‘recent page’ pulldown menu? I can select a page with it, but the page does not then load. (The small pulldown window between the navigation buttons)
It would be even better if it works for you too! I don't know what you're using, but if it's a PC, try dropping down the menu, and right click a selection, and see if it gives you options. If it's a mobile device, drop the menu down, then tap and hold a selection, again looking for options.
Tap and hold doesn't bring up options for me either; I mistakenly thought it would bring up an options menu. What it does do, though, is grey-highlight the selection, until I release it, then it goes to the selected page. If I just tap it, it goes immediately. It's an interesting, if annoying problem.
*edit: Possibly clear the cache? There might be a bunged up version of the page in cache.
*This is an old-model/experimental positronic brain that gained sapience due to some glitch in manufacturing or similar. Maybe highly exceptionally.
*It might be older-model "regular" android brain without normal age-limit. Fabricated before those limits were legislated and grandfathered or something.
Name "Zero" and Samanta's reaction give us vague hints that this being might have considerable history or (religious) clout. Prophet who started the church, famous monk in vein of Zenyatta/Mondatta (from Overwatch backstory) or something...
It is quite calming. @Centcomm, you did get the image out through your hands!
*Binary as a Second Language
That is, if you believe in souls at all. It's less a positive assertion than a statement that no species has an exclusive metaphysical status that others do not.
After the first positronic emergence, I wonder if they looked at it and said "Oh, hey! Look at this; let's do it again!", and thus began some kind of research into positronic sentience, with possibly varying degrees of success, leading to early synth brain research.
Regardless, the underlying question remains unanswered: "Did they, or did they not make the longevity cap retroactive when they implemented it. Whether it came into being before or after the development of synth brains may end up being irrelevant. The only thing, I surmise, that would make it relevant, is whether both positronic brains and synth brains exhibit similar degradation over time, since that was the reason given for the implementation of the longevity cap.
I think it's a good assumption, that if Zero isn't a founder, he's at least a well respected Elder.
Where did you get this from? I don't recall any canon source for this, and it does not seem rational. Since personalities can easily migrate from one synthbrain to another, hardware longevity would seem to be irrelevant as justification for a longevity cap. The restriction, as I recall, is on personality longevity. I don't think we've ever had a justification for it offered, but the impression I get is that the purpose of the longevity cap is to keep humans from becoming even more obsolete as androids both outreproduce them and outlive them.
So, it's admittedly flimsy as I can't really tell you exactly where it was, but maybe either someone else also remembers it, or it's possible I am misremembering something.
But it does leave room for the longevity cap to apply to synthbrains only, or for there to be a different span allocated to positronics, based on differing performance over time. Perhaps they are still waiting for Zero to exhibit the first signs of synth-dementia? Or maybe Zero, seeing a hottie like Samanta, will have a mid-life crisis, go out and buy a sporty red hovercar, and go out to recapture his lost youth? ^_^
Yes, it would be, and it's been something bothering me as well. Would it play out that way, or would Dolly be granted some special dispensation/care/treatment/measures/sporty red hovercar not available to any but the New Troy Elite?
"As in the thronged and the ways, so dark desert they stand, wary and watchful all their days that their brethren's days may long in the land."
Interesting and nice. (although you misplaced the space between the 70th and 71st character)
I'm also curious to know what that spells out in binary. Translation anyone?
As in Caterpillar?
Just noticed it on Zero's upper pectoral.
*edit: Possibly clear the cache? There might be a bunged up version of the page in cache.
Could be an anti-malware/firewall/VPN issue too, if @Gilrandir uses one.